So a few of you have probably read about my addition project on my house. I am building a double stud wall and want to do a flash and batt under it. 1 inch closed cell and batt over it. It would also be nice to sprayfoam my attic in the existing house eventually. I think air sealing and doing cellulose would probably be close to as good but calking is time consuming. Spray calks or silicone paint is expensive after I factor in the sprayer. My freezer only has 4 inches of sprayfoam and it remains cold for several days when the power is out. I thought it was close to 800 board feet but have since learned it was closer to 1200. I had considered a DIY kit but a few people have said "hire the pros." Further research shows that most contractors charge between $0.80 to $1.00 per square board feet. The highest I ever heard of anyone paying was $2 a square board feet. This is all closed cell foam. I tried to get a quick online quote by square footage last week but no one would give me an estimate without sending people out. This online service setup three estimates. All three have been out. The gentleman yesterday stated they use a Bayer close cell product. Yes I know they have their hands in everything but still. So I get the first quote back this morning for the Bayer and it was almost $2800. This was just for the foam. I totally planned on doing the cellulose over it myself but they were still nice enough to give me a quote. That quote was pretty high at over $1200 for R20. This is high considering my cost would be $400 in materials for R30. Should I actually expect anything better out of the others or should I expect all three of these companies referred by the website to probably keep their prices similar? I also looked at a Fastkick gun today, after another contractors recommendation, that runs $1700 for 1900 square board feet of closed cell. It comes with the spray gun and I just have to provide the compressor. This would also allow for enough product to finsh the crawl and the attic in the existing house. So, what is with the high quote, I figured everyone would want business right now. Or has everyone cranked prices up because of another external factor?

"I figured everyone would want business right now. Or has everyone cranked prices up"
Not everyone is starving. the better contractors can charge a fair price - what they need to stay in business and make a profit. The lowballers may be installers who do not get referrals from past customers and have to keep prices low to get work. You can determine which you'd rather deal with.

There is some setup time to the spraying rig, which could include a lot of masking and sheeting off of things that don't need to get covered in overspray. That is why smaller jobs can be on the higher end of the range.

A DIY kit will run you about $1500 for two 600 board foot kits if you assume that you can lay an exactly even one inch layer on the first attempt without running short. In that respect, your 1900 sf option might be a better plan even though it appears to be a little more expensive.

I would avoid batts after spray foam. The foam is just too irregular and you will have air pockets. Blown-in is a good fit, however.

Mind you, massive amounts of closed cell foam is the antithesis of "green", since most of it is blown with high-global-warming potential (GWP) blowing agents, with but a few notable exceptions. As recently as 2 years ago the Bayer goods were blown with HFC245fa, which is about 1000 x CO2 GWP. IIRC Bayer was using the Honeywell's Ennovate version then. Honeywell has released a very low GWP blowing agent (trade named Solstice) as of late last year, but I don't know if Bayer has yet to move on to lower-impact goods.

The only low-GWP 2lb foam in wide distribution that I'm aware of is Icynene's MD-R-200 product (not to be confused with MD-C-200, which is blown with HFC245fa, just like most of the others.) It's blown with water, and is ~3x as vapor-permeable as other 2lb polyurethanes, and without the thermal benefit of the trapped HFC it's R-value is lower, at about R5.1/inch compared to R6-R7/inch for most HFC-blown goods. But it's a much nicer product for the planet (and much nicer than rigid XPS, at about the same R/inch, since the blowing agents for XPS are as bad or worse than those for closed cell polyurethane.)

DIYers with hacked together systems are advise to monitor the chemical temps very closely, or you risk ending up with a sticky outgassing mess, shrinkage cracks or lack of adhesion etc. The pro equipment controls the A side & B chemical temps independently & automatically, and can be tweaked to optimize for outdoor temps too. The 600 board-foot kits lose temperature quickly when spraying continuously, and the temperature as they mix in the gun is never guaranteed. Floating the tanks in tubs of water at the right temperature range can help, but it's still nowhere near as well controlled and predictable as foam applied with pro equipment.

I've never seen 80 cent closed cell quotes, even at the bottom of the building market. Buck, buck and a quarter is typical from competent installers in a so-so market. A 1200 board foot job is on the small side, and bigger installation companies may not want to tie up the spray equipment truck & crew for the amount of road time for a 2-3 hour project, where a large fraction of the time is set-up & break down, not the actual spraying. But it varies- in slow periods when the crew & equipment might otherwise be parked you can still hit the buck a foot range from the better installers, even on 1000 board foot jobs.

Open-blow cellulose in attics is an easy DIY job, so if they're quoting high, you have that option. Assuming that ~$1200 quote for R20 was for 1200 square feet that's about 5 cents- per R-foot, and about 0.6-0.8 lbs per square foot. At box store pricing the raw cost of the material is about 5 cents/lb. As a DIY you're looking at 3-4 cents per square foot for R20 assuming they throw in a day's use of rental-blower for free, which box stores usually will if you're buying at least $100 worth of goods (which you would be.)

I used flash and batt as just a term. I would actually be doing blown in cellulose insulation behind the double studd wall. It would be R6 of spray foam with something like r21 to r26 cellulose.

The 1900 board foot kit I was looking at is very cool looking. It has 190 board feet cartridges that fit in the top of it and uses a high volume compressor to mix and spray the foam. The whole nozzle and cartridge gets thrown out and replaced with another cartridge. Since it uses a compressor you do not have to worry about the tanks chilling up.

As far as the GWP, I am not worried about that. IT has long been known that the greenhouse global warming thing was a unproven theory at best. Global climate change yes which is a natural cycle the planet goes through every so many years. I read some really good information from some scientists that use to work at nasa who come forward because they dont want their name soiled with the extent nasa is pushing global warming. Probably just another excuse for nasa to waste money with their bottlerocket program shutdown. I found it quite funny when a co-worker had his neighbor, who is an HVAC contractor replace his heat pump. He was helping with the heavy lifting and fishing some wires to speed up the job. He said his neighbor started screwing with the recovery maching and it looked very complicated. He also heard that it could cost money to dispose of the refrigerant. So while the neighbor was messing with it he cut the refrigerant lines with bolt cutters. I was laughing so hard when he told the story I thought I was going to pass out.

I got turned onto a very good forum. I found some discussion between contractors saying they make plenty of money at $.80 a square board foot. There was a contractor complaining that someone turned them down over a $1 a square board foot quote. As far as the guy that gave me the quote they sent me just a bulk amount. The quote was not itemized and showed just the total for estimate. It had a place for me to sign for the contract and two pages of legal disclaimer. The only description of the job was the r value and the depth. There was no amount listed for milage or surecharges or anything. I have learned in the past to never sign a contract without a full description of the work and with all sorts of clauses that put restrictions on the customer but not the contractor.

As I also said before, Bayer has a very dark history which also makes me not want to go with them alone.

As far as the GWP, I am not worried about that. IT has long been known that the greenhouse global warming thing was a unproven theory at best. Global climate change yes which is a natural cycle the planet goes through every so many years.

Don't bring your Climate Change Denial garbage here unless you can bear the heat.

Lol, someone else suggested I not use spray foam for the CFCs. Regaurdless of the CFCs, it doesnt factor into my decision of green insulation. The fact that there are some good supported facts to say something is wrong or at least might not work the way we thought is secondary. Either way, I can say the last winter here was colder than any in years. It has also been cooler in the last five years than I remember. Not a big change but enought to really effect heat loss. All of my heat loss numbers are boosted significantly at 9deg vs 20deg. The output of my air source heatpumps are also much less at that temp. As far as the summers, I have still been opening windows at night and my wife closed them because it was in the 60s last night. This is normally unheard of for August. We have also gotten more tornados which was previusly unheard of here. If you do support the global warming theory there would also be a good argument for the foam. Yes you take a hit with CFCs but it would pay off over a long haul. At least here in Virginia there are very few green energy production methods. All power, at least Richmond area to my knowlege, is produced either by gas fired power plants or nuclear. While nuclear is probably much cleaner it still brings up the issue of what to do with the spent fuel. There is also the constant impact on the everexpansive power grid. The large amounts of electrical power that is lost in heat through transmission and transformation at the end user's location. I was simply not aware of the huge amound of natural gas that is also used by the gas fired plants until recently. Either way, I could also see a good argument for not using the CFCs. I dont know if that would be a good stuff to have blown into the walls in your home. At least the fast kick method I have looked at does not use it as a propellant.

kogashuko: You should be using the term "climate change" rather than "global warming". Climate is not the same as weather, and GW makes one think only of weather. Weather is what happens day to day, while climate is the overall trend which affects global weather patterns. For instance, the melting of the arctic ice is causing changes in the global jet streams which has been directly affecting the weather in New England where I live. Not to mention that the increasing temperatures of the oceans and atmosphere is causing an increase in storms like tornadoes and hurricanes. you are right about one thing: vast temperature swings are a recurrent theme in the earth's existence. the concern is that global climate and temperature has been pretty steady for the last 20,000 years when human civilization has been formed but we are heading away from that range very quickly and into unknown territory. the current concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere isn't unusual on a long global timeline, but it is far in excess of what humans have ever lived with.

According to EIA data, as of 2010  about 35% of all power generated in VA was from coal, 36% was from nukes, 23% natural gas.  On  of the biggest coal-fired plants in Virginia and two others are in close proximity to Richmond, emitting more than 4 megatons of CO2 (combined) in 2012.  It's not the dirtiest local grid in the US, but there are cleaner.

Net thermal efficiencies of coal plants are about 30-35% at the first transformer feeding the grid, and about 25-30% from source fuel to end load.  Combined cycle gas generation is typically ~50% fuel to load, gas fired peakers run about 30%.  Between the higher efficiency & lower source BTU price, there is strong economic incentive for utilities to retire coal plants and bring cc-gas online, even without taxing the carbon emissions.

Virginia has pretty good (as yet unexploited) offshore wind resource. Not sure how far along they are in the planning relative to some other Atlantic coast states.

People who deny the nature of the greenhouse gas problem either have partisan political blinders on, can't do math, or both.  This is not a subtle issue, but it's been highly politicized in the US for a variety of reasons.  People who conflate short term weather with climate are refusing to see the forest for the trees (and partisans on both sides of this issue fall into that trap regularly.)  Don't get suckered into the ostrich "see no evil" arguments denying the issue. The last time the atmosphere was at 400ppm CO2 (about where we are today) there were tropical jungles near the arctic circle.  The speed at which the climate systems is accelerating- unless we put the brakes on hard & soon the economic & political fallout over the next generation or two won't be very pretty.

Not all HFCs are greenhouse gases, but HFC245fa and HFC134a are, and very powerful long-lived greenhouse gases, and both are used widely in different types of foam insulation.  Honeywell Solstice and DuPont FEA-1100 are both HFC blowing agents for closed cell polyurethane, and have near-zero global warming potential. But both are very new to the market.

[edited to add]

The simple math/physics model of the CO2 fraction of the global warming problem is laid out pretty cleanly on this blog.  The author is not a climate scientist and isn't pretending that this is anything like a complete climate model (even points out that it totally isn't, and some of the reasons why), but the fundamental physics is demonstrably true. Anyone who really believes that rising atmospheric CO2 ISN'T a problem (or not primarily related to burning of fossil fuels) has the burden of explaining all of the mechanisms that are actually keeping it from being a problem. Climate change deniers seem to pick away at edge issues & errors in some of the more complex models use by the real climate scientists, but Ive yet to read any explanation of how the fundamental issue presented by the atmospheric CO2 concentrations is being defeated by other mechanisms.  It's pretty dumbed-down math, on some very basic physics being performed there, using realistic estimates for most parameters.  If you didn't flunk high school chemistry you can probably follow the blog piece, but even if the humanities were your strong suit, take the time to read it.  The guy's not an idiot, and writes pretty well for physicist. ;-)

Very good to know. I know it is pretty much a fact that the species were killed off in the past by global events that caused a climate change. Giant rock from space or valcano causing stuff to be thrown into the sky. Me and a coworker have a debate as to if we as humans can possibly do anything to reach this. Our electricity in Virginia is still really cheap coming in at about $.10 a KWH. Current solar or wind buyback is at $.15 a KWH. During the fuel cost hike a few years back Dominion cranked prices up. The Virginia Corporation Commission initially said there wasnt anything they could do. However, a few months later working behind the scenes they had this reduced. I had a $20 electric bill one month where I got paid back from being raped all summer. I have been following a pretty good spray foam forum which is contractor rich. A few contractors said my quote was high because it is relativly small job. I have issues with this because my addition is bigger than my ranchers around here. You cant tell me that they would not insulate a rancher with spray foam. I also see it done all the time of all of the building shows in the form of a room or two. Makes me think the market here is stale because we are really not paying as much for electricity or gas (I dont have gas) and traditionally the winters have been mild and summers really only hot for maybe a month and a half. I do want to plan for the future and do thinkgs the right way. With the increase in events with high wind and falling trees I dont think it is also a bad idea to have the extra wall strength. So, I found one more contractor I am going to try that uses Icynene foam. If that isnt reasonable I will probably use a DIY kit. Since I will be installing this stuff when it is like 90-100deg I probably will not have as many pressure problems with the tanks. Looks like I have 3 DIY options. -Foam it Green - covered in DIY network tank system -Touch n seal - another tank system from the youtube reviews looks comparable with foam it green with maybe a little better spray pattern. -Fast kick system from diyfoamsupply.com. They look good, comes with a more advanced spray gun but requires a heafty air compressor. Looking around I cant really find that many places that rent 8 hp gas compressors or 5 hp electrics around here.

I would take a good look at using taped air barrier films (interior and exterior) and skipping the spray foam.

Posted By jonr on 22 Jun 2013 10:09 AM
I would take a good look at using taped air barrier films (interior and exterior) and skipping the spray foam.

Definitly originally considered this. The wall would be R30 with insullation blown in. I left as small gap between the double studs at the top to stick the blower hose in. I have some silicone based paint to paint the cracks and fill them before I tape. I could put OSB on the inside of the wall and tape. I could then drywall over osb. This appears to be what they do in europe and a lot of the passive house projects I have seen online. I could then save the money for the spray foam and just do the attic. I am wondering if maybe the spray foam is overkill at this point for this climate.

I would take a good look at using taped air barrier films (interior and exterior) and skipping the spray foam.

My issue with the taped barriers is that they appear far more susceptible to erratic installation than the spray foam methods.

Please remove from the list of people who would like an email every time this thing is updated!!!!

I did not sign up for this!!!

I left as small gap between the double studs at the top to stick the blower hose in.

dont leave any gaps - the installer will cut an X through the fabric

I am not paying an installer for this because they will charge $1300 plus fuel and setup job for a job that is going to cost me $400 and about 2 hours to do. The gap is going to be at the top of the ball between the inner and outer wall. No net to deal with, no gluing or stapling the net, just filling it up from the top. Give it a few weeks to settle and blow in another few inches when I get ready to do the attic. I will then cap the wall with a board or XPS foam to add more later if I need to.

Posted By kogashuko on 22 Jun 2013 03:34 PM
I am not paying an installer for this because they will charge $1300 plus fuel and setup job for a job that is going to cost me $400 and about 2 hours to do. The gap is going to be at the top of the ball between the inner and outer wall. No net to deal with, no gluing or stapling the net, just filling it up from the top. Give it a few weeks to settle and blow in another few inches when I get ready to do the attic. I will then cap the wall with a board or XPS foam to add more later if I need to.

This is guaranteed to be a messed up job. 

Settling of cellulose isn't just a gravity x time issue (and even if it were, you'd be looking at waiting a few years before topping off, not a few weeks).   The primary driver of settling issue with cellulose is mechanical creepage due to seasonal/annual humidity cycling, and there is a minimum density required to keep settling from occurring in wall assemblies, that is both climate and construction-detail dependent.  (The factors related to cellulose setting & density have been studied and modeled fairly rigorously over the past 15-20 years by Torben Valdbjørn Rasmussen of Allborg University in Denmark.  Some of his published work is available online if you dig hard enough. It's for energy-nerds only.)  That density would be at least 3 lbs per cubic foot, maybe even 3.2lbs to eliminate settling in wall assemblies in a Virginia climate, assuming rainscreened siding and ~3perm paint as the interior vapor retarder. In colder but still humid climates further north 3.5lbs density would be required.

The typical settled-depth density for open-blown attics is only about half that, but that's fine in attics, where topping off is cheap & easy- but not so much in walls. Two-hole method wall insulation retrofits typically come in at about 2-2.5lbs density, and will have quite a bit of settling (about 5%, sometimes more) over the first 10-20 years, but literally NONE in the first few weeks.  If you filled a double-studwall at ~ 1.5lb open-blow density it would very likely settle by more than a foot in the first 5 years, but almost none in the first 5 months.

Came across this forum and felt it warranted to join. In full disclosure, I work for one of the manufacturers of the next generation spray foam blowing agents, am located in Richmond, VA area but have global responsibility. Our product, has been on the market globally for about three years and has been adopted by approximately 30% of our industry in North America now. There is quite a bit of experience now in both wall and roofing applications. The products are proving superior to current HFC technology with the added benefit of a reduced environmental footprint. Regardless of where you stand on the GW subject, they simply are better with industry and consumers driving accelerated adoption. This is happening in the absence of regulations. Not a pitch but would be glad to provide those interested with information since these are truly commercial and manufactured in the US.

Welcome, Xuaco. I for one would be interested in your perspective.

The only spray foam product I know of on the market with HFO blowing agents is Lapolla 4G. I've also heard that Demilac is coming out with one "soon". Are there others? How about applications in other area like doors and refrigerators?