Advanced ICF Class
Last Post 19 Jan 2007 12:29 PM by icfcontractor. 17 Replies.
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icfcontractorUser is Offline
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21 Dec 2006 04:38 PM
Hello everyone,

I am in the midst of planning an advanced ICF class.  The premise of the class is to pour out 6 small ICF buildings on our property.  Each building would highlight different aspects of building techniques, ideas, connections, and so on.

We are going to build different roofs such as a SIP panel roof with a ridge beam, a SIP roof with timber frame trusses, a standard truss roof using LTA1 connectors, a framed roof with a standard sill, even a 4:12 pitched concrete roof.  Exteriors incorporate the same idea from lap siding, board and batton, stucco, to arcitechual coatings such as Dryvit.

 I know I can not think of everything,  My question is, is there something that you guys and gals feel should or could be taught in a class but rarely is?  Or something you feel is important but may be left out of many classes.

Thanks

ICF Contractor
icfcontractorUser is Offline
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25 Dec 2006 06:26 PM

   

Thanks for all of your emails,

Here are some more of the particulars on the class.  The class will be April 19th and 20th.  It will be held in Bellingham WA.  It will be a fast paced class, and will not be a big advertisement for a particular brand although we will have some sponsorship.  What we have come up with is this.

Foundations,
  Slab on grade, standard footing, mono poured footing and stem wall, and an insulated slab on grade.

Walls
  Standard ICF walls using two (possibly three) different methods of erecting them and the considerations advantages and disadvantages of them all.

Slabs
  Insulated, uninsulated, radiant tubes, insultarp, stego, waterproof concrete, and more.

Roofs
  As above in the previous post.

Exterior finishes
  Cedar lap, cedar shake, cement board lap, Board and batten, true stucco, and architectural coatings.

Interior finishes
   Drywall, veneer plaster, tricks and considerations for trim, window treatments, towel bar and grab bars, stairs, doors interior and exterior, and so much more.  We will try to show different methods of attaching interior walls, cabinets, and other special conciderations

Windows
   Windows will include vinyl and wood, standard, arched oval and round, even an eyebrow, different bucks to include vinyl and different forms of wood.

Floors
   In a couple of the buildings we will put in lofts.  We will do a suspended concrete slab in one and a traditional wood floor in another.  We will us a combination of Simpson brackets and J-Bolts.

So you can see this will be an action packed class.  We will move quickly, start early and end late.  You can Email me at [email protected] if you would like to participte.  We will have some accomodation packages available.

ICF Contractor   

IcfnowUser is Offline
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28 Dec 2006 07:52 PM
Are you actually certifying installers in this class?
icfcontractorUser is Offline
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28 Dec 2006 08:46 PM
ICFNow,

That is actually a great question.  We really have not looked at that due to the fact that there is not an officially recognized national certifying agency to float our class by that I know of, although we could run the curriculum past the ICFA.  One of the instructors is certified through the NAHB to teach their class, but that class is very basic.  All of the instructors have been or are currently certified to teach at least one or more of the different manufacturer's classes.  We will be using possibly 3 different ICF forms the issue with certification through a manufacturer is that they will want you to go through their class that is wrought with self promotion.

Our class is an advanced class targeted to the building professional that has an understanding of building with wood, concrete, or ICF.  This does not preclude the ICF novice, but they will be well informed that they are behind the eight ball and will be encouraged to take a manufacturer's sponsored class first to learn the basics or we may offer a basic class the week prior.   Also prior to the class each participate will be mailed a comprehensive homework packet.  This way we have all the students informed to specific starting point.

I will bring this up at our next committee meeting and see where we want to take it.

Thanks again


ICF Contractor

IcfnowUser is Offline
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02 Jan 2007 01:04 PM
I might recommend a training class sponsored by Nudura. This is a great one day class that will certify your contractors. The class cost $150 and Nudura provides lunch and the meeting room. I would recommend doing the class first and then building the houses as this will complete your certification requirements. You may want to use Nudura ICF forms on one house and then different forms on the homes. I reccomend the class first simply because to complete your certification you must successfully complete two projects after the class. At that point in time is when you get the final part of your certification and trained installers card.
OKBlockerUser is Offline
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03 Jan 2007 08:44 AM
"This is a great one day class that will certify your contractors."

I have to laugh when I read about these "one day" certification classes. NO ICF company can possibly teach you everything you need to know in one day.......much less "certify" that you are a qualified ICF installer/contractor.

I guess you have to start somewhere?
icfgalUser is Offline
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03 Jan 2007 03:27 PM
I would not want to spend $150 bucks to take a class so I can get "certified" when in addition I "must successfully complete two projects after the class".  If I were to build two projects with any block I would expect I would not be charged $150 bucks.  I know of only one manufacturer that rebates the cost of the class back to you with your first block order.

I can see the logic of taking a beginning class just to get the basic's down but $150 bucks for the basics is rather steep.

icfcontractorUser is Offline
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03 Jan 2007 08:57 PM

Hey Everyone,

Thanks for all the emails and interest in the class.  I just wanted to take a few minutes and respond to everyone's postings.  But first just a little update on the class.  Due to scheduling difficulties with home shows and such with our instructors the class was moved one week later to April 26th and 27th.

ICFNow,

I agree with you that a manufacturer's class is a good place to start.  We too will be charging between $150 to $200 for our 2 day class.  We are securing sponsors to bring the price of the class down for the students.  We feel that we could put together the best class in the world, but without students we just have the "best class in the world".  The money will go towards the mountain of information that is being compiled for the students.  The sponsors will fund the rest of the class and I myself will be on the hook for a lot of the cost.

OKBlocker,

Thanks for chiming in.  I do agree with you that a one (1) day class does not even come close to scratching the surface of quality ICF construction.  I feel that even our class could easily be drug out to a week or more.  As far as your observation of the "certified" installer classes, this is a problem industry wide.  Many manufacturers won't even use the word certified for fear of future litigation that could arise from someone taking a class and equating that with competency.  This is the conundrum we are running into.  We could say people are certified but what does that mean without some type of official industry body setting the criteria for certification.

ICFgal,

I applaud your enthusiasm and agree that manufacturers need to offer free classes if they are promoting their product in their class. Our class will have sponsors to bring down the costs.

Thanks again

ICF Contractor

IcfnowUser is Offline
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03 Jan 2007 08:59 PM
Regarding replies. Apparantly you have nothing better to offer so why make fun of the option presented. No you can't completely train someone to be a competent installer in one day hence the requirement of completing two other projects, under supervision, so you can put into practice what you've learned. This class is also only available to contractors and these business men already know alot about construction. The $150 includes the manuals an installation CD, the meeting room, breakfast, lunch, an instructor, and your certification upon completion of the requirements. This may not sound important to you but I'd rather hire an installer that has met this type of training requirement then someone that skimped out over a measley $150. When you hire someone that has gotten their final installers card from Nudura you can be sure that they have some experience backing them. I don't know about you but that's the contractor I'm going to hire.
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03 Jan 2007 09:17 PM
If this class was offered in Colorado, even as a 'SIP Person', I would attend. It's a no brainer.

Thanks for offering the class!
....jc<br>If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building?
IcfnowUser is Offline
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03 Jan 2007 09:21 PM
Icfcontractor, Thank you for your reply. I was busy replying when you posted. One thought on your certification. You might want to consider using a company's certification that is recognised nationally and that stands behind their contractors. If I can help in any way don't hesitate to let me know. Good luck.....
jredburnUser is Offline
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07 Jan 2007 09:45 PM
ICFcontractor,
You and your associates have the beginnings of a very good idea but you are dancing around an obvious slolution to the "certification" problem.
You could give everybody in the ICF business a great boost if you would orginize your own association and certify your students
under your own group.
As an example, the National Association of Clock and Watch Repairers have a formal school and a couple of traveling classes for their menmbers. They have several levels of certification and they charge for the schooling, in addition to the membership dues.
You can try the ICFA but they tend to look after the manufacturs and dont seem to care much for us individuals.
Think about it.
Regards,
Joe
James EggertUser is Offline
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08 Jan 2007 08:17 AM
The issue of "certification" is one of the ongoing aspects of our ICF industry requiring more than a casual look. I believe ANY class should be thought of as gaining more info about something, in this case ICFs and concrete. No one takes a class and walks away ready for tomorrow! This class will provide a broad overview of ICFs and it appears some related better construction techniques and attendees should pick uo some good basic understanding of the products.

It appears to cover a lot of "stuff" in a short timeframe, as does the NAHB full-day class on Building With Insulating Concrete Forms. Now there are some "certification" programs out there, but each does have it's caveats.

I often wonder how I would have approached ICFs if I did not have over 20 years commercial background. As I think about that, when I give seminars and classes, I try to keep the level at the appropriate grade for the attendees so they have the opportunity to look at the options available to them so they can chose a path. Yes, classes and seminars can be manufacturer sponsored, and yes they can if handled incorrectly(in my mind) take on brand bashing. That is why I have managed to stay independent and respect each brand for what it is, a better technology to build with.

And yes, "certification" offered by a particular manufacturer can create the potential for abuse but it also creates an image of the installer being capable of using a particular product properly! Properly is where the definition gets blurred and the manufacturer simply says...they uised our product incorrectly. I still believe every manufacturer should provide technical support to the end user. I also believe that if the manufacturer does not provide this for free or at a reduced rate then the end user should pay for this as a requirement of buying that product! You buy a car, you need a license to drive it on the highway...to get the license you need to learn how to drive!
Take Care<br>Jim<br><br>Design/Build/Consulting<br>"Not So Big" Design Proponent
markrossUser is Offline
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15 Jan 2007 09:36 AM
Why not concentrate more on proper form construction, mix design, consolodation and concrete placement and alingnment, with window and door installations, curved walls and tee walls, as well as schooled business approaches for sales and operating a successfull ICF business.
Mark Ross<br><br>"Le Canuck"
icfcontractorUser is Offline
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15 Jan 2007 11:22 AM
Mark,

Thanks for adding input. I agree with you that these are all extremely important and valueable subjects. We thought about a marketing module, but a final decision has not been made. In the class, the importance of consolidation, placement, and mix design will be important subthemes. I am a firm believe in proper concrete placement and consolidation which folds in mix designs. We will be reviewing the PCA study RD 134 which concludes that intenal vibration as well as SCCs with slumps between 16 and 22 are truely the best ways to avoid voids in your ICF walls. According to the PCA's study and my personal experience, External consolidation methods such as tapping, external vibration, and reciporcatiing saws "provide limited consolidation, but do not efficiently transport the concrete past reinforcement steel and generally resulted in significant voids." Not only will these methods will not be taught and they will be discouraged.

We will be talking about and demonstrating different door and window installs. As far as a curved wall no, the tee wall we typically cover this in our basic course.

I can see a class in the future on sales, marketing, and running an ICF bussiness but I am only one man. What about you Mark you have been in the business awhile... a long while. Maybe you could develop a class.

Thanks
ICF Contractor
woulfccUser is Offline
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15 Jan 2007 11:35 AM
ya Mark what do you think?
A class on a large hotel down South this summer.
Changing How the World BUILDS!<br>Green , Done , Easy<br>Woulf c.c. of Wisconsin
James EggertUser is Offline
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17 Jan 2007 10:23 AM
Hey Mark
It's been awhile! Very nice to have you back here helping!

I hear you've been busy on some pretty nice ICF projects? Don't forget to call when you get a little closer!
Take Care<br>Jim<br><br>Design/Build/Consulting<br>"Not So Big" Design Proponent
icfcontractorUser is Offline
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19 Jan 2007 12:29 PM
The informational brochure for the Advanced ICF Class is now available for mailing.  If you are interested in receiving one please email me with your name and address and I will have one mailed out to you.  I leave for the World of Concrete Monday and return Saturday.

Regards,

ICFContractor
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