renangle
Basic Member
Posts:304
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| 19 Dec 2006 12:55 PM |
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I have been looking on-line and many other places in order to get a good idea of how much ICFs really save on energy costs than traditional stick. I realize that the empirical data says 44% during the winter and 33% during the summer, but that isn't very detailed in my opinion. Does anyone out there have any data (hopefully detailed) regarding the energy costs month to month on two very similar sized houses in a local area? I'm in Virginia and am a huge proponent of ICFs, but when speaking with people, I would prefer a more accurate answer to their questions than 33% and 44%.
Any information or input would be greatly appreciated.
Ren
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icfcontractor
Basic Member
Posts:277
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| 19 Dec 2006 02:36 PM |
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Ren,
The Portland Cement Association (PCA) has released a study on the energy efficiency of ICFs in different climates as they compared to a comparable stick built home in the same climate zone. The study was 5 years long and had test homes in Seattle, Chicago, Washington DC, Miami, and Phoenix. If I understand the study data they also used a third comparison of a virtual home built exactly to the energy code that they used the climate info to computer model the data. Of course, to no surprise ICFs were more energy efficient in all climates. I am sorry but I don't have the study number off the top of my head but you could either go to the PCA site or call them and get a copy of the study for a nominal cost.
ICF Contractor |
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renangle
Basic Member
Posts:304
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| 19 Dec 2006 02:43 PM |
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Thanks ICF Contractor |
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PanelCrafters
Advanced Member
Posts:680
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| 19 Dec 2006 08:21 PM |
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Posted By icfcontractor on 12/19/2006 2:36 PM ...The study was 5 years long and had test homes in Seattle, Chicago, Washington DC, Miami, and Phoenix. I'm not sure if this is the study, but here it is.Here is another page that you might find interesting. And, one more.Enjoy! |
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| ....jc<br>If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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icfblocks
Basic Member
Posts:202
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| 19 Dec 2006 08:48 PM |
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Take a look at the datta on the ART site. www.arit.com. |
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| Thanks,<br>Tom<br>www.advbuildingtech.com |
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PanelCrafters
Advanced Member
Posts:680
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| 19 Dec 2006 08:53 PM |
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Ok, a little poking around lead to the whole enchilada. The study was done by the Oak Ridge National Laboratory. So, they are less likely to have the biases that the PCA does. The results are much less favorable than the results that you've been quoted. |
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| ....jc<br>If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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icfcontractor
Basic Member
Posts:277
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| 20 Dec 2006 02:03 AM |
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The study I am speaking of is RD2415 by the PCA
ICF Contractor |
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cdelong611
New Member
Posts:3
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renangle
Basic Member
Posts:304
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| 20 Dec 2006 09:53 AM |
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Thanks everyone for your input. You've been a great help. |
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ICF372
Basic Member
Posts:111
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| 27 Dec 2006 01:06 PM |
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I have an energy audit performed by a third party it compares a ICF to a wood frame "pre build" on the same lot.
It also compares geothermal to gas. Keep in mind that the electric rates in many areas are reduced to nearly half, Resulting to annual heating and cooling bills to less than $300.00 in this case.
ELdon Howe |
 Attachment: ICF Home with Standard Energy Rates.pdf
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Eldon Howe<br>Howe Construction
[email protected]
<br><br>Total Concrete Homes provide positive cash flow , DAY ONE . |
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ICF372
Basic Member
Posts:111
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vhehn
New Member
Posts:91
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| 28 Dec 2006 07:20 AM |
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These last two studies tell me that strictly on a financial basis you will never recover the additional expense of the icf
over wood frame. there are other ways to achieve the energy savings that are cheaper and easier to build, like sips. $200 per year savings will take a long time if ever to see a payback. there may be other reasons to build wholehouse icf but energy savings should not be the only criteria. |
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woulfcc
Basic Member
Posts:147
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| 28 Dec 2006 10:15 AM |
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Vhehn,
You hit it on the head!
However, If we look at the real coast of living in a (total shell) Icf walls, roof add geothermal and radiant heat add in insurance, maintenance, we get a real world operation coast comparison.
Look it up @ arit.com under the building shell power point page 38.
Think out of the box. |
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| Changing How the World BUILDS!<br>Green , Done , Easy<br>Woulf c.c. of Wisconsin |
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ICF372
Basic Member
Posts:111
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| 28 Dec 2006 11:00 AM |
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Here is and always has been the foremost reason for ICF houses.
I wish it could be a one word acroym, but it's not.
THe first order is to those who live within.
1. Safety
fire, storms, health
2. durabale structure,
only needs maintance to non structural componets that will be changed at some point anyway.
3. Relieabilty
Even if all systems fail ,such as heating/cooling, HRV (required for the Sips and other Structures ) the structure of the ICF does not fail.
"many of our icf house never freeze even without heat"
4. Generation X
Will need a home that has not already reached it's life cycle.
5. Reasonable future efficiency
As energy cost increase many buildings will be simply tore down just because of monthly cash flow cost.
Durable buildings need to be easly upgraded to meet future needs.
6. And finaly cost
in most the cost differance could purchase a small garden tractor with a rather short life and a very poor return on the investment.
Several of our ICF home cost no more than even double wide homes . Here are four.
Morley Home
1,250 sqft. 2 bed 1 bath radiant floor heating Sold for $55,000.00
Indian Lakes Home
1,375 sqft 3bed 2bath radiant floor heating Sold for $65,000.00
Bills lake Home
1,400 sqft. 3 bed 2 bath radiant floor heating Sold for $75,000.00
Canadian Lakes Home
Total Concrete Home 2,600sqft 3 bed 2 bath, radiant flr /forced air/ geothermal/ hrv/
concrete roof/ intermediant concrete floor
icf 2 stall garage/ concrete driveway
For sale Asking Price : $ 185,000.00
see energy audit in previous post.
Eldon Howe
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Eldon Howe<br>Howe Construction
[email protected]
<br><br>Total Concrete Homes provide positive cash flow , DAY ONE . |
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icfblocks
Basic Member
Posts:202
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| 28 Dec 2006 05:04 PM |
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In some states the savings in homeowners insurance can be a substantial amount. I believe in Texas the savings is about 50%. In GA. it around 30 to 35%. I don't have any figures from the coast of Florida but I would think it was a substantial amount. |
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| Thanks,<br>Tom<br>www.advbuildingtech.com |
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jredburn
New Member
Posts:51
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| 28 Dec 2006 06:57 PM |
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The State of Florida requires that all Insurance Companies post a discount rate that they will apply to the Wind Damage Portion of the homeowners policy. All of them have done so and the amount of discount ranges from 30% to 75% with USAA being one of the better Companies. None of them charge the same amount for the Wind Damage portion so the discounts vary wildly. The law does not require the Insurance Companies to inform their agents or the public about the mandantory discounts so most of them do not do so. State Farm is very good about giving discounts though.
The requirements are that the house must be built to present day building codes. If you meet all of the requiremnts set forth by the IBHS institute, you can get a substantial discount on the insurance.
Our 2000 sq ft ICF house is Fortified and our insurance last year was $1400. The stick frameed 1050 sq ft house we moved out of was $1850
Regards,
Joe |
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walltech
Basic Member
Posts:390
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| 28 Dec 2006 07:16 PM |
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I think it's obvious on Cliffs home that the savings are more than $200.00! Jan. alone was almost $200.00 with a $1000.00 plus difference over the whole year. Cliffs house called for 2-200,000 btu furnaces along with a 80,000 on the basement level. The whole house is over 6000 sq ft and is using 1- 100,000 btu furnace, lets see that is about $1800.00 less in furnace cost, along with the undeterminal amount of labor savings installing the two extra furnaces. Under most circumstances ICF doesn't cost more money, it cost less. |
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vhehn
New Member
Posts:91
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| 28 Dec 2006 07:37 PM |
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i am not seeing that link.
Posted By woulfcc on 12/28/2006 10:15 AM
Vhehn,
You hit it on the head!
However, If we look at the real coast of living in a (total shell) Icf walls, roof add geothermal and radiant heat add in insurance, maintenance, we get a real world operation coast comparison.
Look it up @ arit.com under the building shell power point page 38.
Think out of the box. |
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vhehn
New Member
Posts:91
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| 28 Dec 2006 07:47 PM |
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Under most circumstances ICF doesn't cost more money, it cost less. i challenge that statement. everytime i get an icf bid in my area its about 25% higher than conventional. |
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BretJ
New Member
Posts:7
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| 28 Dec 2006 09:29 PM |
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What he is pointing out is that while the ICF structure may cost more on the front end (mortgage payments), it more than makes up on the back end (maintenance and upkeep costs).
I am currently building an ICF home here on the Florida panhandle. My home is just over 3000S.F. home. When I asked State Farm to quote me insurance on the same home built as a stick frame, it was going to cost me $2000 a year more. There is a $2000 dollar savings right there. An energy efficiency company as well as my local Electricity Co-op figures the home will cost approx 45 dollars a month to heat and cool. This is about a third of what I am paying now so add another $100 a month savings. Next hurricane that swings our way will be of no real concern (Excellent location with basement) so no need to evacuate. Depending on the year that may save us another $1000 or so. I went with metal roof over metal trusses and a concrete floor system over the basement. Inside walls are steel studs as well so no need for a $900 termite bond. If you add up my monthly savings it comes to approx $340 not including hurricane evacuation costs. This easily covers the additional cost on my mortgage and then some. Too many buyers and builders concentrate on the front end costs...shame really. Too much worry about short term goals rather than long term benefits.
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