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Attached windows/doors to ICF Nudura home
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PatrickG26
New Member
Posts:29
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| 25 Jun 2007 12:51 AM |
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Hello, I am hoping one of you (or many of you) experts can answer some questions for me, I think I am having some buyer remorse after buying my first ICF home.
I Just recently moved into my new Nudura ICF bungalow (6" concrete for basement and above grade walls).
I went out and bought window security bars from home hardware and they came with 3" screws. When I drilled the required holes in the window frame (I have low-e argon windows with PVC frames), I noticed that the PVC was really thin, and then there was a really thin piece of wood (I'd say no more than 1" tops) and then then foam (or nothing i'm not sure could not see, but drill went in like it was butter).
So my window security bars are now installed but I don't get the sense that they are very solid. - I mean they are attached to a 1" (maybe even less) piece of wood....doesn't seem very solid/secure to me.
So now this also got me worried about my doors... are they also just screwed into a thin piece of wood? And what is that piece of wood attached to and how? - Like I said, after the wood, boom...the drill just went in like there was nothing there.... - I drilled 4 holes, each 4" appart on each side, so it's not like I could have just hit a "bad" spot I don't think.
Seems to me a good kick could easily tear out the whole window/door frame!
- I Apologise in advance if this is a stupid question, I know NOTHING about construction, building codes etc etc etc... Please be very basic in answering (I don't know any of the building terms).
I live in Ontario, Canada (if that helps with building codes or whatever).
By the way, one of the reasons I bought ICF was for noise reduction - But I don't notice it to be any quieter than any other regular stick frame houses i've lived in so far... I can hear cars passing on the highway from inside my house! (there's about 150 meters of forest seperating my house from the highway!).... Could something be wrong with the building?
Also - I thought ICF was supposed to increase R rating and decrease energy used to heat/cool? - I have a closed loop geothermal system (2 wells) and it turns on every friggin' 5 minutes...runs for a few minutes and turns itself off again.... I just moved in, so haven't gotten my first bill yet, but seems like in my previous "crappy built" houses, the furnace would only run once every hour or so. It's not even that hot outside.. it's about 75-77 degrees and I have my thermostate set to 72!
Thanks!
Patrick
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fjohnson
New Member
Posts:30
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| 25 Jun 2007 11:39 AM |
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I'll take a stab at this... it sounds like you've installed your security bars through the pvc window frame, and then through the window buck (the house frame the windows sits in and is fastened to).. more than likely should be a 2x board thiat will measure 1 1/2" thick or possibly a piece of 1x wood or 3/4" ply that would both measure 3/4" thick.. and if you drilled within the first 2 1/2" - 3 1/2" of your wall thickness you would have hit styrofoam next.. depending on how thick your icf stryo is.. you may have 6" of concrete with 2 1/2" of stryo on each side + the 1/2" of sheetrock or whatever they used to finish off the inside.. so no.. if your bars were fastened to all of the above.. not much security but will look good.. and if you have 2x window bucks.. it's exactly what you would have had in a stick built (crappy built) house too, and they offer more looks than true security. Now if you set those back into the concrete, that's a whole different story and my guess is if you had set those bars back (towards the outside side of the wall) another few inches you would have hit concrete after the wood.
As far as noise.. we have an icf home and unless the wind is howling 40mph or the garbage truck were to lay on the air horn when he's next to the house we hear absolutely nothing.. the only place sound enters is through the glass or through the soffit/roof. Maybe your short on ceiling insulation or you have a lot of window surface, because I can tell you for sure that sound doesn't do well trying to come through 6" of concrete and 5 inches of stryofoam.
Heating and cooling.. sounds like your system is way over built for the house.. but I also think that some of the running might be in trying to deal with the humidity rather than the heat or cooling, depending on your system. But my guess is that it's way over sized for what you need. Again, that's MY guess. |
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dmaceld
Veteran Member
Posts:1465
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| 25 Jun 2007 08:53 PM |
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PatrickG26
Man, I feel for you. My first reaction is you got screwed by an incompetant builder but I sure hope not. You need to see if you can find a reputable ICF contractor to come take a look see. Or, call the builder in to explain everything to you. If he's good and takes pride in his work he'll come.
The 1" wood you say is behind the PVC - is it part of the window unit, or does it appear to be a wood frame into which the window unit is installed? Maybe the window frame is vinyl clad wood and the open space you encountered behind the frame is what's called V-buck. The frame inside the foam blocks which holds the window is usually built of 2x lumber or V-buck. To learn what V-buck is go to www.vbuck.com, but basically it's a hollow PVC box about the same size as 2x lumber.
Is the heating/cooling system air? I take it the short cycling is occuring during air conditioner mode. What may have happened is someone sized the system by rule-of-thumb for a frame house, which means it's probably way over sized. That will cause short cycling. During cooling it also means you won't dehumidify properly. On the other hand, a problem with using a heat pump for both heating and cooling is that heating demand is usually greater than cooling demand. A single stage HP designed for a cold northern winter climate and in which the evaporator is in the air handler so the HP heats the air directly, will have 2 to 3 times the capacity needed, or desired, for cooling. To properly handle both heating and cooling the HP needs to be a two stage unit so it will have less output during cooling, or there needs to be an intermediate media like water to transfer the heat between the HP and the house air. You need to have a good A/C guy come look and explain the system to you. But I can't believe the A/C needs to run at all if its only 76 to 80 outside and your thermo is set to 72. What sort of ceiling/roof insulation system do you have? Maybe you're way short there and roof heat as well as outdoor noises are coming in that way.
As you can tell, I'm somewhat stabbing in the dark not being able to physically see your house.
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| Even a retired engineer can build a house successfully w/ GBT help! |
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PatrickG26
New Member
Posts:29
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| 25 Jun 2007 11:29 PM |
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Well the house was finished at the end of 2005, and I bought it off the original owner who had it built. - The insulation in the attick is celulose. I don't know how much there is, only that it is "up to code" for my area. I live in Ontario near the US border and the temperature in the summer can get to 35 celcius or 42+ celcius with the humidex. In winter, it can get to -30 celcius and -45 celcius with the windshear.
The window glass is immediately on the outside of the house, almost as deep as the exterior wall, and I have about 6" of window "pane" inside the house. I drilled the holes about halfway deep before the glass. The PVC cover seems to be really thin...like less than 2/8th of an inch, and immediately after it, there's the thin wood. It is definitively not more than 1" thick total, and right after that, it was like I was drilling into nothing. So I assumed it was the foam.
So should I try to drill holes closer to the glass? Maybe I will hit concrete right after the thin piece of wood? (the buck or whatever it is) ??
The house is a bungalow with about 1,200sqf on main floor and 1,200sqf in the finished basement. - So total heating area is about 2,400sqf. I have an "e-series" water-furnace with I believe 2 ton displacement (whatever that means).
I had a home inspector come and inspect the entire house before closing, and he said it was "top notch" construction and everything was at or above code. He even went into the attick and checked the insulation (celculose). I also have an air exchanger which I turned completely OFF for the summer.
I do have a propane fireplace in the basement with the pilot light continuously on. The previous owner told me to keep it on to prevent bugs from getting into the house, but I do notice that it is giving off considerable heat (when I touch the glass pane, it's very hot almost too hot to touch). Maybe that is contributing to the system cycling on and off very frequently. |
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dmaceld
Veteran Member
Posts:1465
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| 26 Jun 2007 12:41 AM |
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I now think the wood is the window frame. The rough opening in the wall would be 1/4" to 1" greater than the window frame all around the perimeter of the window, so this space is probably what you encountered. Did you check to see if after about a 1/2" of gap there was more wood? That would be the window buck. If you are drilling about 1/2 way between the interior and exterior surfaces of the wall you will definitely hit concrete eventually, probably as far back as 3" behind the finished inside surface of the window frame. If you were to cut a horizontal section through the wall and window what you would see in the center 6" or so of the wall is ~1" window frame, ~1/2" air space (maybe filled with foam like Great Stuff), 1 1/2" to 2" of buck (either wood or vinyl V-buck), and then concrete. If you drill within ~2 1/2" of either interior or exterior surface of the ICF wall you will hit styrofoam instead of concrete.
The 2 tons of the heat pump is the capacity. Ton is usually used for A/C capacity and Btu/hr for heating capacity. One ton = 12,000 Btuh. For 2400 sq ft house 2 tons is not oversized at all I don't think. The heating/cooling load for the 2200 sq ft ICF house I'm getting ready to build calculates out at about 19,000 Btuh, but we're not as cold as you here near Boise, ID. The home inspector probably focused on the physical condition of all the house components. He most likely would not give you an evaluation about the performance of the heating/cooling system in relation to the heating/cooling load of the house.
Why don't you see if you can find an internet primer on how houses are built? It would go a long way toward demystifying for you issues such as windows, doors, heating systems, etc. I wish I could give you a link, but I've never had the need to find such a primer, having grown up cutting boards and wiring outlets and repairing windows, and so on. But then again, if things mechanical like house components aren't your cup of tea, forget it and just ask more questions the next time around. :-)
Hope this helps.
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| Even a retired engineer can build a house successfully w/ GBT help! |
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dmaceld
Veteran Member
Posts:1465
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| 26 Jun 2007 12:54 AM |
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I still think you would be advised to have an AC technician come check things out, and give you a good explanation how everything should, or does, work. As to the air exchanger - turning it off is not a good idea. The reason for the exchanger is the ICF house is so tight you don't have the air infiltration to keep the air fresh like you do in a typical frame house. Leaving it turned off can lead to unhealthy and humid air. It also may be a heat recovery ventilator which means not much heat in winter, or cool in summer, is expelled out of the house. Is the air exchanger connected to the furnace duct work? It probably only runs when the furnace runs, and probably not even that much. Again, have an AC guy explain all that for you. Also, have him check the thermostat set point spread. Maybe the original owner didn't want to have the temperature fluctuate in normal fashion so the thermo was set to keep the air temp in a very narrow range. Also, is it by chance located where air from a duct blows on it, or close to it? That can screw it up.
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| Even a retired engineer can build a house successfully w/ GBT help! |
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Chris Johnson
Advanced Member
Posts:878
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| 26 Jun 2007 12:56 AM |
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Hey Patrick;
Where are you located in Ontario, try Nudura for the nearest distributor and from there you should be able to locate the original ICF installer, by the sounds of it the less than 1" of wood is the jamb extension on the window and below that foam bucks were used. I'm betting if you were to get about 4" from the face of wood you will hit concrete. Attaching security bars without positive contact to the concrete will deter a potential break and enter but if the guy really wants in he's coming in.
Leaving the fireplace on to keep the bugs out does work, but so does ant traps/bug spray etc. this is wasting your propane and generating additional heat (which you won't need in August) Good chance when the HVAC was sized someone did not take ICF into account (common issue) and the system is short cycling, have this looked at and fixed immediately you are effecting the life span of the system.
Why are you turning your HRV off in the summer? That is a great system and depending on whether it is a dedicated or simple system (dedicated P/U from all wet areas) you should leave it on. It will keep all the musties and dampness out of the house and keep it smelling fresh
Chris |
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| Chris Johnson - Pro ICF<br>North of 49 |
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