Thank you for the link Alton. Thank you for the photos Lbear. Can this product be just be purchased and installed yourself or do you have hire some “certified company” as stated on the website? Couldn’t termites just get between the mesh and the foam via the gap shown in the photos? Seems like the mesh (or something else that termites can't get past) would need to completely enclose the EPS to be effective. How expensive is the material if it can be purchased or how expensive is it to have it installed by a "certified installer" if it can't be purchased?

Posted By icfbound on 14 May 2015 08:18 AM
Thank you for the link Alton. Thank you for the photos Lbear. Can this product be just be purchased and installed yourself or do you have hire some “certified company” as stated on the website? Couldn’t termites just get between the mesh and the foam via the gap shown in the photos? Seems like the mesh (or something else that termites can't get past) would need to completely enclose the EPS to be effective. How expensive is the material if it can be purchased or how expensive is it to have it installed by a "certified installer" if it can't be purchased?

It is a DIY as long as you have moderate building skills.

If they won't sell you the mesh, I would just Google or Bing it and find a supplier who will sell it directly to the end user.

What gap are you referring to?

The mesh only needs to be installed on the outer wall EPS since termites cannot tunnel through 6" if concrete. Subterranean termites CANNOT be exposed to the outside/UV so they tunnel in dark areas but the mesh would stop them from continuing up the wall. If you have the mesh and a stucco finish, the termites could not tunnel through it.

The product and install works. It's pretty straightforward and will stop termites from tunneling up the wall.

I would guess that some type of retrofit would be possible For example, maybe slice a thin slit into the foam and push in some poison soaked felt. Or maybe inject the slit with mortar.

Our termites are actually coming up the foam foundation wall onto the interior of the house. So they must be tunneling under the foundation to come up on the inside of the foundation wall. Does that make sense? There is no termite activity on the outer walls.

That is what I was wondering, if we could cut a slit and shove the mesh into the foam? thank you for your ideas.

Lbear, I was referring to the gap between the mesh and the EPS in your second lower photo. It appears the mesh is folded down over the concrete stem wall leaving a large gap between the mesh and the EPS. I would have expected the mesh to have been folded up over the EPS on both the outer and inner sides.

Posted By JustOneMom on 14 May 2015 07:38 PM
Our termites are actually coming up the foam foundation wall onto the interior of the house. So they must be tunneling under the foundation to come up on the inside of the foundation wall. Does that make sense? There is no termite activity on the outer walls.

Interesting. I've never seen that happen. So that means the hive is either under your slab or traveling underneath your footings and coming inside. Either way, it's too late now but a poly barrier under the slab would have stopped the tunneling since termites can't chew threw poly.

Slab details in termite areas consist of spraying termiticide on the raw soil, 4" ABC, another spraying of termiticide, rigid foam, poly and finally the 4" of concrete.

One could put the termite mesh on both the inside and outside of the ICF just above the stem wall.

You will have to call a professional company to drill holes into your concrete slab and inject termite poison into those holes. That is the best approach for now.

Posted By icfbound on 14 May 2015 08:46 PM
Lbear, I was referring to the gap between the mesh and the EPS in your second lower photo. It appears the mesh is folded down over the concrete stem wall leaving a large gap between the mesh and the EPS. I would have expected the mesh to have been folded up over the EPS on both the outer and inner sides.

Depends on how you finish the exterior wall. If one is applying synthetic stucco (EIFS) onto the ICF the stucco would adhere directly to the EPS and directly to the mesh. Termites could not tunnel through the mesh and they could not tunnel around it since the stucco is like concrete. They couldn't go anywhere so the activity would stop.

My understanding is that termites can and do eat through polyethylene (LDPE) film. Compared to many woods, it's soft.

Posted By jonr on 14 May 2015 09:21 PM
My understanding is that termites can and do eat through polyethylene (LDPE) film. Compared to many woods, it's soft.

That is the first time I ever heard that termites can eat through poly or plastic. Even the www.Termites.com website states that termites CANNOT eat through plastic or poly vapor barriers. Also, beneath the vapor barrier is termiticide and inside of some vapor barriers is termticide treatment.

Anything is possible but if you take these precautions mentioned, I don't see one having a termite issue. A poly vapor barrier is better than no barrier.

PER POLYGUARD WEBSITE

After discussions with the pest control industry and several regulatory agencies, it was clear that, although a successful lab test was encouraging, long term testing for a minimum of five years, at multiple test sites, and against multiple species and using controls, would be required to provide certainty of the efficacy of the new Polyguard Barrier. Long term inground testing was completed in 2011, with all test sites showing 100% destruction of the controls, and 0% damage to the test specimens wrapped with Polyguard’s Barrier. The final report by Dr. Roger Gold, Endowed Chair of Urban Entomology, concluded that the Polyguard Barrier demonstrated "100% efficacy".

Termites can also get through a pretty tiny crack in concrete, which are bound to happen. We had termites get into our FL home through a crack in the slab. I don't know if there was poly under the slab or not, but unless the poly were sealed completely with tape, they could follow a seam and get through. This was in a CMU home, but they still managed to find the interior wood.

Posted By jdebree on 15 May 2015 06:29 AM
Termites can also get through a pretty tiny crack in concrete, which are bound to happen. We had termites get into our FL home through a crack in the slab. I don't know if there was poly under the slab or not, but unless the poly were sealed completely with tape, they could follow a seam and get through. This was in a CMU home, but they still managed to find the interior wood.

That is my concern about that gap between the mesh and the EPS in the second lower photo. The stucco will be induced to crack at the gap location which will create a direct and short path to the EPS. I don’t think the way that mesh was placed will be at all effective. I would have expected the mesh to have been folded up over the EPS on both the outer and inner sides if the plan was to use stucco. Stucco over exterior EPS just seems like a very bad plan in general in termite areas. Using any structural element that contains EPS like ICF and SIP just seems like a risky gamble in termite areas.

Thank you all for this information. If I have regular termite treatments on my Reward Wall home, do you think that I need to install some kind of mesh barrier in addition to that? My house was built before the termite-treatment was infused into the foam, but I understand that a termiticide was put down before the foundation was poured. The termite treatment I currently have is the same treatment used on a stick-built home.

Link to study discussing termites attacking polyethylene. Other sites discuss adding pesticides to PE layer(s) to be an effective barrier. The polyethylene sheet that most everyone uses under a slab should not be confused with "Polyguard".

Posted By icfbound on 15 May 2015 07:59 AM
 

Stucco over exterior EPS just seems like a very bad plan in general in termite areas. Using any structural element that contains EPS like ICF and SIP just seems like a risky gamble in termite areas.

Actually, stucco over EPS is the best plan in termite areas since stucco (properly applied) cannot be penetrated by termites. What other options would you use? Placing cladding over ICF is worse because you would never see or stop the termites from using the back side of the siding as a means of transportation.

If you don't use any ICF, SIP or EPS in a structural building, what are you left with to build and insulate with? Your back to wood frame which is why termites are going after the home in the first place, the wood. EPS has NO nutritional value, termites tunnel through it to get to cellulose products (wood).

If you go all 100% concrete home which will have an R-Value of R-2. What do you build your roof with? If you go steel SIPs for the roof, you still have EPS foam. If you go wood truss, you have the wood trusses.

Hundreds of thousands of homes are standing in termite country and they have EPS in them and wood in them. Termites are a problem but they can be controlled with proper precautions during building and after with proper upkeep, inspections and maintenance.

Using ICF with a synthetic stucco finish is one of the best ways to build in termite country.

I just built decorative CMU exterior structural walls along with steel stud interior walls. I filled the cavity between the walls with rockwool for total wall r value close to 50. Also used steel trusses, metal roof and rockwool for ceiling r value close to 70. I am still worried about concrete cracks providing termite access but figure they would have to travel a long way through the concrete before finding any good shelter and any food. The CMU is filled with rebar and concrete. ICF EPS and SIP EPS provides great shelter and super highway access to every inch of the building. I do think frequent treatment and inspection is the best approach for dealing with termites but I don’t like the thought of having to use pesticides around a residence with small children. Originally planned to use ICF but this approach was much cheaper since I did the work myself and can get cheap rockwool. I also liked being able to work at my slow pace with the concrete and get everything perfect. Still get the nice adobe buffered thermal mass benefit as predicted on Borst ICF calculator. Anyhow that was the option I used and I am very happy with it. You will have to ask the grandkids in 100 years if any termites ever got in.

Posted By icfbound on 15 May 2015 06:12 PM
I just built decorative CMU exterior structural walls along with steel stud interior walls. I filled the cavity between the walls with rockwool for total wall r value close to 50. Also used steel trusses, metal roof and rockwool for ceiling r value close to 70.

I am curious as to the wall and roof build-up. You stated R-50 walls and R-70 ceiling using Rockwool insulation. Please describe the wall & roof build-up. How thick is the insulation, how many layers and how is it all put together? Attaining R-50 and R-70 using Rockwool is a pretty tall order.

I assume by your forum name "ICFBOUND" that the name no longer applies to your future construction method?

House is just a 1800 sf single story simple rectangle floor plan. Looks like old English Cotswolds cottage that my parents live in. Total exterior wall thickness is just shy of 24”. 8” CMU and steel 2x4 stud create 15” cavity filled with rockwool. The steel studs are just for fastening dry wall and retaining the rockwool. The attic above ceiling just has 24” of rockwool. Nothing complicated here just lots of rockwool in my little castle. No, I decided against the ICF because I was worried about building it myself and messing up, worried about insect and rodents getting into the EPS, and this option was way cheaper than the ICF bids cause was able to get rockwool free by bartering my services. I also like and wanted very thick exterior walls for window seats and compliment interior design. I figure the summer thermal mass effect makes the walls have 30-40% more effective r value than conventional. In winter figure the effective and conventional are about the same. I guess bound now means that I bounded away from ICF after researching it.

I believe vertical ICF has a significant advantage over block ICF with regard to termites and subsequently dealing with any damage that they may cause. Any termite infiltration can only travel up the vertical EPS panels and can NOT travel horizontally. If necessary, the vertical EPS panels can be easily removed and easily replaced in the future. We prefer TFSystem vertical ICF products and often recommend them for our passive solar projects.

As I posted before. If you coat the exterior below grade with a latex damp proofing product you should be ok