Hi. New here to the forums. Forgive my ignorance, but I am not sure exactly what ICFs are? I am from the 'Great White North' (Canada) and have never seen  them used before. I have heard of a product that does sound like it may be the same thing, but from some of the posts I have read here, I get the feeling that the product that is being talked about is being used to build the whole house, from the footings to the roof? Is that correct? Does this include interior walls?

Some back ground information on myself: I am a 4th year Carpenter Apprentince, currently working on commercial concrete buildings, using forms. I am looking to start my own company building custom homes, and I am very interested in using alternative/environementally friendly/energy effecient building methods.

So far I have done research on SIPs, and now I am looking at the ICFs.

Any help/information would be much appreciated.

Cheers,

Brandon.

Here is a good place to get information on ICF's.

http://www.forms.org/index.php?act=typesoficf1

http://www.forms.org

Tony

Thanks Tony :)

I am also new here... and am also a Canuck!!! :)

I am considering an option called Thermomass; the wall construction is kindof opposite to ICF's; its made of concrete forms with insulation in the centre of the concrete wall. Not much insulation is required (approx. 2") due to the mass of the wall with has great thermal properties that enhance the R-value of the wall as a whole, instead of evaluating each component individually.

Here is a link if you're interested in learning about it: here

Good luck in your research!!

Be careful Suzy. You are buying the hype. On a cold 'Canuck Night' your exterior walls will look like an Orange Christmas tree bulb through an infrared camera. R-10 is R-10, don't buy the 'Thermal Mass' garbage. If it's 10° outside, you only have that R-10 trying to stop your heat from melting the frost from your exterior walls.

I didn't find on their website where they actually state the R-Value of the product. Maybe it's there somewhere, but it looks like they are trying to hide something.

Please remember, R-Value(static) does matter.

Good Luck!

I have to say that JC ( Panel crafters ) is on the money with this one.
We have a commercial building in WI that was built that way and it is cold.
This is the carpenters training center and a lot of them in the US are built that way.
Just look up the heat bill and see what I am talking about.
I got to say JC you have helped this forum a lot and I look forward to hearing more from you?
What do you think would be an easer and more real world way to compare heat loss and gain than R value and U ?
Heat calcs ?
Energy bills?
Double blind Tests of all insulating systems
I just don't see a honest comparison for the general public to see a simple standard for what the are getting. And how to shop for what they want.
May be this sould be on a new post.

ICF's fall under K values of conductance in HVAC design, R and U dont work properly for loss/gain designs.

Mark Ross

Thanks for that reality check of sorts. I looked into it further, and it seems as though they use 2" as a pretty example! They also state that they have used all thicknesses of insulation, from 1" to 10". And the concrete wythes can be as thin as 2", so I'm going to look into this more for my climate...

Can anyone provide any feedback as whether these systems require above-grade air/vapour barriers?!

I would like to leave my conc/insul/conc walls completely exposed on both interior and exterior sides, so need to know if this is possible.

How does Tmass compare to ICF for foundation walls for a walkout basement? cost/thermal performance? Or just a poured wall w/ several inches of insulation board on the outside? I am planning a passive solar w/ concrete floors on a south facing lot in MN.

I usually post over in the SIPS forum.

R, U or K, it doesn't really matter they can all be derived from each other mathematically. R makes the most sense as most materials display their R-Value.

An accurate Heat Loss Calculation will not lie. The problem is using the correct R-(U or K)Value for each material.


No disrespect, but that is silly. BuildBlock & Nudura, for instance, list their thermal properties as R-Values.

And, what is a K-value? It's simply 1 / R-Value per inch. And, to be honest, I haven't seen any Heat Loss calculators that use K-Value.

Why is the thermal performance of straw bale homes so good?
23" thick @ R-2.4/inch = R-Value 56.5, or U-Value 0.018 or K-Value 0.417

R, U & K Values are just different ways of saying the very same thing.

Mark,

in the effort of speaking a proper scientific language that people understand whether they are in Saudi Arabia, USA, Europe or Asia it has been accepted to adopt a language with values that are recognized world wide. The K- value is outdated and has been replaced by the U-value to identify the thermal transfer co-efficient of any particular building aggregate. Now, your ashrae committee might disagree, but I say to just throw out a value without making it understood to our readers is positioning yourself above the clouds.
Is it not inappropriate to our readers to just mention a K-value for conductance without elaborating to them what a K-value is? There must be a way for us, being the experts, to speak to our readers in a way that they can understand, no?
THe R value, whether you like it or not, is widely advertised, especially by the Pink Panther company. Every person knows the R-value, even though they don't. That is why terminology is introduced to equate to the R-value such as R-equivalent, even thougn it has nothing to do with the elusive R. THermal mass then has a R-equivalent because people don't know how else to understand the thermal regulation expressed in the outdated K or the updated U, of a mass regulating the energy transfer between an exterior temperature to an interior temperature - or vice versa.
I have read your expressed resume in this forum. Would it not then be wise to talk to us in a manner that we can understand?
I am just an observer, but I care about the information forwarded to our readers.

Excellent post Manfred !

Manfred:
NICE! I too want to understand.

Ditto.....

Common sense speaking! Good thread, Manfred!

The problem is that there is one key consideration for the formula.

That is that R values (which is the measurement of thermal resistance) can incorporate multiple materials, and all you have to do is add them up, and you get a total.

K values are very different, in that you cannot add up multiple materials to determine the total K value of an assembly, hence the reason K works more accuratly for ICF's or mass walls such as concrete, brick, stone, log or such type buildings. You have to calculate each component, based on the temperatures on both sides of the component in question.

As well, we do not have a key componet associated with the loss values that are typically incorporated in buiding wall assemblies. This is convection, which now does not really exist in an icf wall assembly, and is an important consideration for building loss's and gains.

What you have to do to calculate your loss/gain accuratly is to first determine the outside temperature to design to, then the temperature of te concrete (I use an average of 58 degrees F in winter, and 68 degrees F in summer) and use an assumed interior temperature (Ideally about 72 degrees F.) as a K value first. The moving number is the wall temperature, which has a very large impact on the wall assembly.  When you are done with this, then you can convert it to a real R value using the recipricol as stated above.

This is one of the reasons why the outside EPS insulation does so much of the work, and actually performs at a much higher R value than 2.5 inches of EPS should. The concrete acts sort of like a buffer, with the interior 2.5 inches do far less work than the exterior, in cold winter months.

Mark Ross

A little late but we all understand what your saying Manfred. Those who speak in tongues to the uneducated may win there heart, but not fool those around him that understand his language.

Dave

Speaking of the 'R' value......I don't think we'll EVER see the window mfg's change from the 'U' value to the 'R' value.....People would start thinking they are putting 'holes' in their walls!

New myself to this. Another category would be insulated concrete block. You might want to check out this

Interesting, and it gives me more to look at/think about.

Thanks to all that responded.