To all fellow ICFers. When you have a project that is beyond the scope of the IRC2003, and within the scope of Prescriptive 02' is your locale BDept. allowing PM as an alternate?

Dave

They have in the past, however, I find they are more comfortable talking about the project with me and realizing I know what is shown and subsequently want to learn more!

I actually provided a copy of the Prescriptive Methods, V2, to one town!

Prescriptive method has not been very well accepted in parts of California. Without an ICC # they would not even look at a few of the ICF blocks, I had to change a few projects to different blocks for this very reason.

I believe CA has required seismic engr required, however, what I don't understand about not accepting some brands of block is 6" of concrete is 6" of concrete, in simple terms.

Some of the smaller ICF companies do not have the deep pockets it takes to get "reviewed" and certified by an outside source. Many of these products are take0offs of other brands, sometimes when partners split off and other reasons.

However, it still comes back to the fact that sometimes, depending on where you are, and/or the understanding of the systems involved, an engineer is required to "stamp" the building that it is safe. This, as I said, depends on where you are; and sometimes it is just plain unnecessary involvement of additional services. But, there are also those users, whether pro or diy, who benefit greatly from having someone guide them thru the facets of ICF building, and those people should avail themselves of that help in order to build a safe structure.

In states with required approvals, simply use a block that has approval for that state, as for the prescriptive method, it is like codes, and subject to local conditions, of which the building official in the local has the right to overrule. You can contest to the chief building official in the state, but you will likely not succeed. Best to do what they ask, otherwise, inspections could become problematic, rule of thumb, don't bite the hand that sells the food to the hand that feeds you. Please take some time to read the administrative part of IRC or local codes and you will see that the building official clearly has the power to overrule the code.

Mark Ross

Overrule might be a little omnipotent; "modification in order to comply" works well for me.

As a licensed BO I find there are a few things we don't like, but we enforce them as fairly as we can!!

The reason for my original post below!

12/06/2007 9:33 PM

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To all fellow ICFers. When you have a project that is beyond the scope of the IRC2003, and within the scope of Prescriptive 02' is your locale BDept. allowing PM as an alternate? Dave 06' appears to be bringing bad changes for all! As one of the new ICCES applica's we have had the opportunity to see the new changes coming in ICCES. As the next few years progress and all existing pre 06' applications renew there are new changes to comply with ICCES. (1) Screw pullout test will be divided by a much larger safety factor bringing the results to ridiculous results. (2) Prescriptive methods will not be recognized unless your inspector never reads the new ICCES reports. As a advocate of prescriptive methods for basic interpretations beyond the IRC I see this as a issue we all should lobby the IRC code changes in the future. For example: For those who know the IRC code we are not allowed within the IRC's limitations to do a foundation over 60' in plan length.(This includes the garage) The "interpretation" shows a basement that is 60' long with a non jogged straight 60' wall. We all with common sense can easily understand that a foundation wall 10' tall with 9' ft of back fill 6" flat ICF is a border line liability but falls within the IRC. A 62' long 10' tall wall with 9' back fill same 6" flat wall 4 offsets (corners) is a much stronger ICF foundation but is well beyond the scope of the IRC due to its length and requires analysis in accordance with ACI318-05, which drives up cost. This same foundation can be built with poured walls, masonry block with no governing issues. Previously most inspectors found this acceptable under the PM 02' addition which took out the length issue. I believe as the future progresses we need to push the IRC and the ICFA to start recognizing the PM 02' before this issue gets out of hand in residential building.   This is just a few issues I see and of lately other things have popped up with 4" ICF that never was questioned with 6" above grade. Lets realize that ICF is much stronger than wood and stand our ground! Dave

Mark - You hit the nail on the head, I could argue with the BO for accepting the prescriptive method, but even if I won the arguement what would inspections be like for me? What would they be like for the GC when I was done? What would my chances of having successful builds in that county in the future be?!!!

California is finally giving up the UBC come Jan 08 (I think we are the last state to do so) and going to the IRC across the state, I was under the impression it was going to be easier for me as well as other trades, but you have me thinking now that it could be a challenge. I figured the first 12 months while the conversion was happening (Permits before Jan under UBC, Permits after Jan under IRC, assume 12 months for the UBC permits to run out) would be a little confusing.

Dave, back in my Ontario days if a wall exceeded a certain length (I believe it was 38' long, 8' tall, 6'6 backfill) we use to install a buttress to break it up, hopefully an intersecting interior wall was on the wall and we made that the location, is this permissable in IRC?

Not under the IRC. You can be allowed under ACI318 if you can do the calcs. and show your BO, and it doesn't require a seal.

Chris: Have you been following UBC to the book, or have they allowed prescriptive.

Dave

UBC is the code here currently, along with the ICC reports and the engineers stamp and approval (inspections) along with special inspections beyond the engineer of record and the building department. When you are ready for a pour here first call is to the engineer and special inspector, recieve a letter of approval from them, BO comes in reviews those two letters and does his own inspection...now you can pour, pour day you have a special inspector on site measuring slump and temp and load times on every truck, samples are taken from every 3rd truck for breaking in 7, 14, 28 and 56 days. This is for every ICF job both commercial and residential since we use 3000psi mud.