We are building a 2140sqft bungalow with advantage icf block, we just finished pouring the walls last week and at that time we had 3 blow outs and 2 of the corners of the house lifting when pouring, plus numerous blocks splitting right by the webing. We are currently very frustrated with what has happened since we thought we purchased a quality product and thought we had a qualified installer. Right now we are faced with difficult framing job to put the roof on and interior walls. Just wondering what went wrong since the installer blames advantage and advantage blames install. Anyone with any answers or questons would help maybe answer some concerns

Well unfortunately Advantage is a ghost block to most who post and read here. They have minimal market share and is a poorly designed form. I have seen them used once here in Michigan with the same results from fairly qualified installers.

Dave

Cityslicker,..sorry to hear about the problems you had. Could've been a number of things that went wrong. Concrete may have been incorrect slump, pour rate too fast, and some blocks do perform better then others when pouring. I've seen second rate blocks pour fine and I've seen quality blocks blowout, just depends on the install.  Some blocks are much more forgiving than others. Quality blocks can "hide" installer error more than cheaper blocks if ya know what I mean. Each block has its own characteristics. I just looked at this block and it looks like a candidate for glue. I noticed in one of the videos on their web that they did indeed use glue. Did your installer glue or tie blocks together? Has your installer worked with advantage before?  If he is used to working with brand x, then there will be a learning curve with brand y.

Bunt

Briefly, what is the installers experience, number of projects complete, etc.

Has he used that particular block before? Different blocks have different characteristics and unless the installer is well versed in that block he can have difficulties. They are not all the same and someone who installs brand A regularly knows it inside and out, give him block B which he hasn't used and he goes at it the same as block A and he could have problems unless he adjusts for the different features and characteristics.

Did I confuse you?

I work with 1 block regularly and 3 others on occassion, the other 3 are not the same as the main 1 and I need to adjust certain habits and remind the crew or essentially retrain them if the block changes. If you throw me an oddball I would be cautious not knowing how it reacts to how I normally do things.

Most problems are installer related, they rush and don't pay attention to particular items of concern. There are numerous blocks on the market I don't like or even want to try, I have come across them spec'd on jobs and I will bid them as well as rebid with a different block I am familair with (and always at a lower price), most people allow the block change since the all mighty dollar rules.

You have several options at this point, 1) form the top of the wall about 6" higher than the highest point, drill and epoxy some dowels and pour a level cap, 2) bring in a wall saw and cut the top of the wall to the lowest point and drill and epoxy new anchor bolts to secure the sill plate, 3) Shim the heck out of it, insulate all gaps and hope like hell you get them all and don't have cold spots, 4) Tear it all down and start over with either a different block or a different installer (Don't do this, it's ridiculously expensive)

Good luck and keep us posted

I am going to step in here with my buck fifty worth! inflation you know

This is in defense of installers every where who get blamed.

I am a manufacturer of one of the blocks on the market today and have used several of the blocks out there and would agree that they are not all created equal but with the correct training they should not be blowing out and lifting. To often the finger gets pointed to the installer who did not get quality training from the manufacturer. Now that is not to say that the product failed either it still goes back to training.

I have been called in to look at problems with several of the top name brands when a failure happens and more often than not the installer had not recieved training or the training that was recieved was more of a sales pitch then a training.

I have found that most where trained in scabbing and bracing but they did not know about slump or consolidation, or the fact that most of the gauges on the trucks are not accurate. We test every truck on our jobs and have found that about one in ten are close, that is why every truck gets tested, only takes 3min.

Those of us who answer questions on this form have always told the rookies get a product with good factory support and training. But we also know from some of the questions being posted that is not happening.

Here is an additional ten cents worth,

I have seen this happen before and it was a compound problem, rooky installers + poor bead fusion with the EPS, and wet 7"-8"+ slump.

The pump operators like wet mud and to pump fast in order make it to next pour , combine those factors with a weekend warrior crew and things can go south quickly.

Didn't see any photo's posted but it would be helpful to see the extent of the injuries of the ICF block & pour failure.

The Wiz

So what everyone is trying to say is Quality Control

Installer - Unfamiliar block, not trained in block, inexperienced, rushing to make extra $$$, poor supervision (ties back to inexperience)

Manufacturer - Poor product, poor support, poor q.c. @ factory, poor training

so, any or all of the above conditions created your problem

Cattail Bill; where are you located that the Q.C. on the concrete is that poor? ICFWizard; I hire the pump, we will pour at MY rate and we are done when we are done, if the operator doesn't like it, fine, get me someone else, I'm paying the bill.

Chris I am in Minnesota, I need to clarify the qc is not always that poor but we have had the experiance and we have retrained the pump person, the ready mix batch master, the drivers ( rule of thumb for the drivers is once that truck leaves the plant I own it and only I determine what water will be added at the site).

Most of the suppliers that we work with now the first truck is tested and adjusted, then a call back to the batch master who makes his adjustment and the rest of the trucks come in correct, except for the occasional driver who thinks he knows more than I do about what I want.( they do not have jobs very long or at the very least are not allowed to bring mud to our sites).

We still test as I said before, to me it is cheap insurance for getting good product, and we always have someone extra that would be standing around watching on pour day so this way they are earning there keep.

For the most part we probably would not have to do this anymore as the plants we work with know what the deal is, but again they hire new drivers all the time so it is important that we do not slack off.

Keep in mind before ICF the walls where simons forms or similar and slump was higher to get it to flow with out voids. Unfortunetly there are still some old school poured wall people out there that try to pour ICF the same way as poured wall.

You're talking basically just the slump test, right? Do you use one of your own people to do that, with you owning the slump cone and rod, or do you contract with a testing service to do it? I've been debating whether I should hire a testing company to check my pour or do it myself. I'm confident w/ doing it myself if the concrete man has a cone. If you're shooting for, say, a 6" slump, that is the slump out of the truck, not the hose, right? If that's the hose end slump then what do you shoot for out of the truck, 6 1/2" or 7"?

Do you ever do 14 day and 28 day compression cylinder samples?

Come on guys, help them fix the problem(now) You all have been their. I  know that I have. 
I am sorry to hear your bad day 2 days ago I would have some help for you but its harder now.

You now can correct the foam if your concrete is good(meaning well consolidated)

The first thing an inexperienced installer will do is stop vibrating as soon as he see a blow out.

Bad consolidation is harder to fix then a bulge in the foam.

Pulling the foam off at the blow out and chip the concrete back flat, glue a piece of block back on the flat concrete and shave the foam flat.
 Thats it. 
If you concrete is good this fix will be very simple and you will have no worries. 
I hope this helps

We have our own slump cone they are only $80.00 but well worth the price. We use our own personel to do the testing.

Proper training which I have found most drivers do not know how to slump test but most pump guys do, and all of our crews go through training in slump testing.

On commercials we use a test facility for our slump and our compression cyl's.

We generally test at the truck not the hose as you would already have a yard in the pump before you could test and it may be a bad yard.


To accomadate for proper slump at the hose we run 1" higher at the truck, we shoot for a 5" to 5 1/2" at the hose so we set the slump at the truck at about 6" depending on the temp and humidity of the day.

Good info, Bill. Thanks.

Good advice by woulfoc. With a concrete grinder and rasp, you should be able to fix blowouts quickly. For the future, if you experience blow outs on another project during a pour, What I do is have the guy vibrating pass the blowout, then cut a hole in the foam where the bulge is if the foam did not bust open. Once the hole is cut pull out enough concrete to where you can push the blowout area back to where it needs to be. Then put the foam piece you cut back into the hole and put a wood clete over it to keep it there. Screw the wood clete into the plastic webs on both sides of the blowout. If it is a corner then you will probably need 2x4's running down each wall, connecting at the corner. Then have the vibrater come back to consolidate, but watch as he vibrates to make sure the cleet is enough to hold. If you had a blowout there might have been another reason besides the block being a weak block. So pay attention to whats going on around your blowout. During a icf pour there is usually a lot of pressure on your timing and want to keep the guy on the pump continuing to pump out the concrete, so you might not want him to come back to fill the low spot where you pulled out any concrete. On a 210 sq. ft. house the concrete would'nt have a whole lot of time to set up depending on how wet it is and the weather, but it might help a little. Remember, the guy on the vibrater came back to the blowout area to consolidate after you pulled out however much concrete you needed to pull out. When he did that, if your wood cleet held, your concrete should have dropprd down from both sides into the valley you created and now be above your blowout area. Hopefully by the time the pump has come around again the concrete has set up a little and will not put too much pressure on the weak area when the fresh concrete drops on it. And when the pump is at this area, you need to pass over it quicker so that you don't have as much pressure until enough time has passed and you feel confident the blowout won't blowout again. This is a whole lot to understand and watch for, but if you can catch the blowout and fix it during the pour you are going to save yourself time fixing it after the pour, which can be more costly. Like woulf said, I have seen all kinds of mistakes, but have never come across one that could'nt be fixed. Some worse than others, but the one you are describing sounds like a minor one and should be easy to fix. Hopefully by now you have been in contact with an icf guy and have been able to get your framing in.
God Bless