I am about to build an ICF house and after considerable research I have decided to use a certain block.  I approached a distributor of this certain block and asked him to refer me to a good contractor.  He did and I contacted this contractor and asked for a bid on my house plans. 

When I got this contractor's bid I noticed that he used a different form in his bid.  I called and asked why he didn't use the form I had specified and he said he was a distributor of a different form and bid that form because he could get it cheaper.

Should I believe that this contractor was interested in my project's cost or is this just his greed coming to the surface because he could make more money using his own form than the one I specified?

Now I think I have a moral integrity issue with this bidder and wonder if I should dump him altogether and find someone else.  Is this common practice in the industry among ICF contractors?  It seems like dirty business to me.

Jay

? did he break down the quote for you materials and labor? if not that should raise a concern
having said that, this is not an uncommen thing for a contractor to do they will often shift between different brands untill they find the best quality for value and who has the best customer service and you should always get a second quote if possible

I hope it's an uncommon happening.  I am an independent installer not a distributor.  If I am brought into a job by a distributor I will certainly NOT try to sell another block even if I feel one is better than another.  Most of the projects I have completed  in the last 12 months have been one block in particular, but I did work with 4 separate blocks.  We did installs for Nudura, FasWall (a mineralized block), Build Block as well as IntegraSpec.  I do have favorites but don't voice them to a customer handed to me in trust. 

Jay:

How would you---or anyone for that matter---know the answer to this until you received quotes from the guy using each kind of ICF and then did a little comparative shopping to determine how competitive he is?   Without this information, your worry about the guy's purported greed is nothing but conjecture.  

Until you've got reason to believe otherwise, why not give the guy the benefit of the doubt and assume he's working in your best interest? It's quite feasible that this contractor is totally forthright and ethical, but facing the uphill battle of a potential client whose glass is perpetually half-empty.


John

I'd say it's dirty business, I suggest you call the block distributor and ask for a new reference and let him know what the other recommended installer is doing to his business.

I'm not going to bite a hand that feeds me.

I, too, hope that this practice isn't common for it seems to be biting the hand that feeds it.  One motive for this action is greed and I don't want to align myself with that sort of contractor.

I followed Mr. Johnson's advice and called back the distributor.  He gave me another contact and I have asked him to bid on my project.  I also asked the distributor to send me his bid for the ICF material so I will know how much of Contractor #2's bid is labor versus material.  

Contractor #1's original bid gave me the price for material so I should be able to make a fairly objective judgement about whether the first contractor had my interests or his at heart when he substituted the form I wanted for the one he sells.

I suspect the distributor will not be recommending contractor #1 for future business for his own reasons.

Thanks for your thoughts.  You guys never let me down.

Jay

they are probly more familiar with the block they qouted and probly can get that block at a lesser price.

whats wrong with that.

block is block. its made of foam. you pour concrete in it. its all about the installer.

get a second or even 3rd qoute. look at some of each of there jobs. talk to a few of there customers if possible.
then make an informed decision.

i dont get it. we would only use our blocks as well. that is what we stock in our wharehouse and is what our crews are use to using. doesnt mean were doing anything sneaky.

the distributor that sent you to that installer may be the guys friend or knows they do great work.

there answer that they got the block "cheaper" was a bad choice. cheap is never good. i would have said this is what we use and why i think its a better block.

From an ethical stand point it was wrong of the contractor to quote another product!

Look at it this way if the contractor recommended a tile contractor and the tile contractor told you to go to a different contractor because they are cheaper you can bet that tile guy would not get any leads ever again.

This brings up a good point and that is the consumer is responsible to do some shopping.

The distributor you went to gave you the name of that contractor in good faith and he may have lost the sale because of that, no one is in buisness to loose sales.

Frankly when some one is not ethical in their buisness practices I for one prefer not to do buisness with them regardless if they are the best price, if they are not ethical at the beginning they will probably not be ethical through the entire project and that can lead to many problems during the project and the only one that will get burned is you the consumer.

I do not know what buisness you are in Jay but it is clear you would not do anything that was not above board and I commend you for your integrity.

Without getting into the relationship between contractors and suppliers, I would have expected the contractor to quote the specified material to the customer.  The contractor should have proposed the other material as an alternate backed up by whatever his reasons are for recommending it. 

I am skeptical about contractors who do not follow instructions and think they are free to do as they please.  The substitution may have been done with good intentions, but I do think that is good business practice and it does not foster trust and confidence.

ICF Curious

I agree you don't bite the hand that feeds you!! As an independent, the brand referral is the product to use for the project! There are times when the referred product may not be able to perform in a safe manner, but generally....block is block!

That said, if the client "believes" they have the capacity to interpret which block is "best"(nebulous I think), it is usually which website, advertising, conversation, or T-shirt catches their fancy! Do not misunderstand what I wrote, there are non-construction people who can wade thru the hype and investigate product useage!

However, I also do not believe the client should select the product anyway......They should concentrate on the technolgy of ICFs, and not worry about which color the block is!! The scenario of dealing with a knowledgable individual in construction would allow for some interaction in the block selection, but MOST of those selections are dictated by the requirements of the structure!!

"However, I also do not believe the client should select the product anyway......They should concentrate on the technolgy of ICFs, and not worry about which color the block is!! The scenario of dealing with a knowledgable individual in construction would allow for some interaction in the block selection, but MOST of those selections are dictated by the requirements of the structure!!"

As a consumer and also as an employee of a construction company, I find that statement is off the mark.

As a consumer I have more than done my research on building materials for my home. My builder is spending my money and I have reasons for the way I want it spent.

As someone who works for a builder I know that "most" builders are not familiar with all the new (or even older products) They work with what they are familiar and know works for them in cost and results. This is not always the best product for the job and does not always meet the clients needs. Yes this works for 80% of the people building homes. It does not work for all of us.

That does not mean that I should not listen and discuss material and product choices with my builder.

Bravo.   My sentiments exactly.

I've put a ton of time into researching exactly what it is that I want in my next home, how it's to be constructed and the materials to be used to accomplish that.   As I've discussed these with the couple of builders bidding on the job, I've learned that many of the products that I've spec'd are completely foreign to these guys (and gals)---and we're talking high-end builders here---yet they're products these builders were quite happy to have been made aware of.   These folks build for a living and that's how their time should be spent.   They're in business to make money and [hopefully] to hone their craft.    But I think it's ridiculous to expect that they should be on top of every product on the market that would potentially make your home a little better.    Technology reinvents itself way too quickly to expect that.

I think the building of a home should be a collaborative effort between the builder, the architect and the person(s) for whom the home is being built.   But ultimately the final decisions about which products are to be used and how they're to be used should be made by the person signing the checks, not left to the discretion of a builder who may simply be making decisions based upon what's known and  immediately available to them, not what's necessarily the best.

All that being said, there are folks having a home built for them who don't want to worry about any of this stuff.   And that's fine.   But the CHOICE to leave these decisions up to the builder (an/or architect) is one that should be made the homeowner and no one else.   Afterall, they're paying the bills.


John

Jay, dont be tainted by the switch, ask him more specifically why? is his block "better"? Then call some manufacturers.

My recent experience is thus: we started with one block, switched to another for a few reasons which ended up kicking us in the butt. My suggestions to you would be to research, research and research some more.  There are great products out there, some better than others.  We are in the toils of dealing with bulges, partial blowouts etc. Not strickly because of the product but it did play a part. If you are interested in my research and what I have learned since, give me a call or email me directly  If your installer will only use one type of block, research it. Then decide if it is worth switching to someone else.  Most "GOOD" installers can just about work with any, some are easier than others which is $$ in or out of your pocket. This blog is about the best around to get information.

Kristie

[email protected]

 

actually, you both missed the point which I didn't state, but alas assumed would be apparent. I also knew full well someone would get offended, but offended was not my point.

My point was CHECKOUT the technology, and a block made by whomever should fullfill the end result!! Thats, all! I didn't mean sit at home and allow anyone to ram something down your throat, but after spending many years teaching, training, designing, installing, selling, pouring, investing in equipment, etc., etc... most installers want to help you get to a better home. I have no time to DISPELL all the BS which is dissemenated to people who "investigate" and then say....ooooooh, I like this one! At least not until you're paying me for my time!

NUMBER ONE- Clients chase the deal....everytime

NUMBER TWO- The end user, commonly referred to as the Installer, usually has a stake in how a project works out, There are "products" out there which are good, some bad, and some downright scary, and the installer usually has an idea which of these products works best. No one wants to use the blocks which fail, and make the installer look bad!

Read thru posts on this site. It's never the product, always the installer's fault, but there are products which cannot do something as well as something else. You need to read between the lines a little!

Now I will say there is a variation in this thread which I didn't elaborate on before. If you, the client, buys Product A; I will price the install based on that product. I think thats what you want!

Now when you read NUMBER 1 above, do you really think my bid is for simple hourly wages? No, somewhere you're paying for acquired knowledge, tools, insurances, OH & P, trucks, benfits, etc....If you buy Block B and its a problem, who do I the installer go to??? You, so the manufacturer can tell you, ...."It's the installers fault!!" Yeah, right, the manufacturers have no incentive to placate a single project purchaser, so it all comes back to whether the installer can use the provided product safely or properly! Kind of a real catch 22!

OK, I agree everyone should talk about materials and selections, but no one can say the same 6" core ICF by Company A performs better than Company B, when the density and thickness factors are the same, they both use virgin polyproplylene straps, and so on. This is why there are blocks so similar to each other, they are filling a desire for an end result, and the advertising hype, or the salesmanship, can get in the way!

I know you will be happy whichever ICF product provides the end result, a safe, strong, energy efficient home!! Now the journey...well, that's another story!

As a comment to all this and being an ICF distributor, I make the practice not to bad mouth ICFs in any way. They are all part of what we are trying to promote in the building business. There are forms that are , in my opinion, better than others as well as contractors. The "all is fair in love and war and "honor among thieves" really doesn't fly. Respect the customer and try to accommodate him. Offer suggestions and alternatives that may benefit him is after the original proposal has been submitted. They will usually listen. A well informed and knowlegable customer has the ability to decide what he will prefer to use based on his research.

A well informed and knowlegable customer has the ability to decide what he will prefer to use based on his research.

I can agree with this on the face of it, assuming the knowledgable customer is buying the product for their own use!!

However, buying for personal use versus buying or selecting for someone else to use is two distinctly different paths to the same end project!

My original post was a lament that my builder used his block instead of the block of the guy who recommended him for my project. It was clear to the builder that I had talked to the block distributor and he had received my business because of the distributor's recommendation. The builder know I wanted to use that particular block. The fact that he switched to his own block without talking to me was the point of crisis for me. I think his integrity was compromised by his greed to make a few more bucks. That 'practice' was wrong in my opinion. I just wanted to know if that 'practice' was common.

What I have gathered from all of these opinions is that some contractors are willing to do what the customer wants even if he thinks the customer is wrong. Other contractors will try to show the customer the reasons for switching to their own block. Lastly, it appears that some contractors think they are much smarter than their customer and will discount the customer's wishes to do what they think is right in an effort to 'save' the customer from their own errant ways.

I prefer to do business with one of the first 2 types but unfortunately my builder appears to be from the latter type. Therefore, I have cut him loose and am pursuing another builder.

Thanks,
Jay

We have been in this business since 1992. I have been thru all the crap about not bad mouthing any ICF product. Sorry to say that some products are garbage and you can use them at your own risk. Some products are adequate and the job can be a success with a little more labor. Some products are superior Cosumers get on the internet to get answers. They do thier research and do not really have any way to verify that the information they get on line is the straight talk they need to make a good decision. I must also say that the consumer has never used any of the products and does not have any of the real experience that would steer him in the right direction. All this being said my suggestion is that you go to job sites check the work, talk to the framer that has to follow the installer. He will know if the walls are plumb and square. Now to the original question from Jay. My opinion is that the contractor was unethical, if the only source of the lead came from the other block distributor. I however have never known this to be the case. Most consumers go to at least a few different manufacturers, for instance if you make an inquiry at this site more than one manufacturer may be getting the lead. Jay go with your gut feeling as to the integrety of the installer. No one on this forum was there for your meetings with him. Only you can make the final decision and it is yours to make, good bad or indifferent.

Right on Jay!
My hat goes off to you, and I raise my glass in honor of your integrety!
This man has just lost your business as well as any future business from the distributor and his leads base.
It is quite obvious to me that indeed Greed is his only motivation, and certainly not looking out for your best interest.
There is no doubt that you did do your investigations, and made a choice after all things were considered.
The distributor probably spent considerable time and effort discussing with you the needs of the project at hand.
The guy he reffered to you in the first place has (in my opinion) turned out to be a scum bag.
-and I would say that to anyone who thinks any different about this topic.
Alas, this situation is all too familiar. Unfortunately, I see it every year at least once...

You did the right thing Jay, and I am glad you took the time to post this issue- thank-you for that.
I can only hope this is a lesson for those of the scum bag type out there.
Honor the leads given to you and you will grow your business,
Bite the hand that feeds you and you will certainly slow your business...

All the best of luck with your build Jay- it sounds like you are well on the way in the right direction.
Take care All,

C.Kerr

A lead from a manufacturer should definitely be treated with honour, the job should be spec'd with that block.
A lead from a distributor should follow the same principals.
A lead from a client who calls and says "what do you recommend I've been thinking of x block" makes the playing field wide open for all options.

Now for the notebook full of leads we've given to manufacturers to pursue and they passed on to other installers or sold directly to the consumer, don't even get me started....

Kevin