freakboy
New Member
Posts:51
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| 15 Jun 2008 10:01 AM |
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newbie working with polysteel blocks was surprised to learn of the reps system which does not use bracing. Once the walls are stacked up beyond the first floor elevation the band joist is attached along the perimiter with 2x4 tempory supports underneath running to footing. Next the floor framing is installed and decked. Now there is a rigid, square platform to work on during the pour and it virtually elimates the need for bracing.
Of course the corners still need some extra attention and any foam joints in cut blocks need reinforcing.
I am only assisting on this project and am much more cautious than the home builder and we each have our own ideas on how it will work. I have worked with various concrete forms over the years and have a respect for how much force can be placed on the forms during the pour. I am nervous.
There are no turnbuckles staighting the wall. Simple kickers made by 2x4 running roughlly 45 degrees back to the earth bank from the form were installed by others. To make things worse some of the kickers are only wedged against the foam form where there is a stud insead of attaching to a horizontal brace (or whaler) which spans several studs I am extremely nervous because the heavy rain today is likely eroding the dirt around those kickers. Had blocks been dug into the bank before installing the kickers I would feel better. Alas many of my suggestions fell on deaf ears.
Our first 8' pour is tomorrow. I will post the results. I want to belive in the ICF system but now wonder if sipps are the way to go for better R value
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| Dont run thru the forest with your face on fire<br> |
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James Eggert
Basic Member
Posts:411
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| 15 Jun 2008 10:59 AM |
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this type of installation has been used many times, and works well. I do agree that I would prefer the kickers have a block of piece of 3/4 plywood at the wall, otherwise, its an easy way to pour walking around on such a large surface.
I assume they cut out pockets behind the ledger for the anchor bolts before placement? |
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| Take Care<br>Jim<br><br>Design/Build/Consulting<br>"Not So Big" Design Proponent |
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mark3885
New Member
Posts:11
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| 15 Jun 2008 11:07 AM |
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Its only common sense to over brace, what can it hurt. Only using a bit more time. A pour is a one shot deal . Once the forms blow out ,your screwed. I know what your up against. I did a pour and the home owner was a college professor. He insisted that we pour without added bracing which I insisted. What do I know , I only work with this daily. Well quess what , we had a blow out, low mid wall. He spent an extra $4000 and a big headache for not listening to me , his reply is "I should have listened to the expert"
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icfcontractor
Basic Member
Posts:277
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| 15 Jun 2008 04:11 PM |
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Freak boy,
Tell us how large the project is, how many lineal feet of wall, # of openings, difficult areas and so on.
It has been my experience that when employing the system in the manner you describe once you go over 4 feet or so it is counter productive and take more time, energy, wood, effort and money to achieve a lesser result than the traditional stack, brace, pour.
ICF Contractor |
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freakboy
New Member
Posts:51
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| 15 Jun 2008 05:33 PM |
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The main house is 30x36. there is also a bump out mud room added to the back corner which is 12x20. The plywood deck we installed is the permanant first floor deck not a temporary brace of some sort. There are special ICF brackets installed behind the rim joist which will become the main supports once the pour is completed.
the 8" blocks for the basement portion are 24"x48". After the fourth course they switch to 6" wide blocks and this this transition creates a 2" ledge on the inside. The 8" basement portion has 4 typical basemnet windows and a 6' opening for a slider.
There are 4 door openings and 1 fireplace opening which needed to be bulkheaded or framed out the last time I saw it. This was completed by another competent carpenter.
Whenever I had done concrete work in the past I always braced things plenty. we plan to use the vibrator sparingly and have a pump truck. |
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| Dont run thru the forest with your face on fire<br> |
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freakboy
New Member
Posts:51
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| 15 Jun 2008 05:42 PM |
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Mark, thats what I am trying to avoid. Its not my project and I just wanted to help out to learn about the system. ICF is something I really want to believe in. I think that had the plans been designed for and ICF project to begin with it would have made things easier. At the moment I think that stick build with spray foam could have been a lot cheaper and just as good. I am just beginning my search for the holy grail of affordable ultra insulating home. I am lucky because I get hands on learning on someone elses dime. |
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| Dont run thru the forest with your face on fire<br> |
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freakboy
New Member
Posts:51
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| 16 Jun 2008 05:31 PM |
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The pour went perfectly. no blowouts. 9' pour done in 2 passes with pump. I am amazed by the strength of those foam blocks. the steel ties and imbeded studs are every 6" in the form and I guess that is plenty strong enough. The walls did not tilt out of plumb at all.
The vibrator we used was the smallest I have seen. It was used quite a bit and caused no problems. The product rep was there for the pour and was a huge help through the entire process thus far.
for the 4 small window bucks and 1 large door we had used 2x8 PT filling in the extra 1/2" with spray foam. There were numerous bolts screwed into the backside of the bucks before placing in form so now most of the bolt is in the concrete. That was time consuming and want to try the plywood screwed to keyway 2x lumber trick learned from this site. I like the idea of having something solid to nail/screw to even if it is edgegrain plywood.
According to our rep most houses he sees here in New England install windows flush with outside of wall. Seems like most CA folk are doing it mid wall. Would really like to see pics of some projects. I dont like the idea of a 8" window/door jamb inside.
It just occured to me that the doors may not open much beyond 90 degrees if the doors are mounted flush to outside.
Thanks for this great forum
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| Dont run thru the forest with your face on fire<br> |
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Paul Stevens
Basic Member
Posts:200
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| 16 Jun 2008 06:40 PM |
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freakboy, I have done that a few times myself for 1 reason or another. I had an issue with the top block, which had the floor attached by ledger board, tipping in due to all of the weight even though it was supported by 2x4's. Then when you started the second floor you would notice the wall coming in then angling back out again. It wasn't a huge problem, barely noticeable to an untrained eye, but I unfortunately notice all, therefor it was a problem for me. Even though at the end of the day it didn't really affect anything, I knew it was there and didn't like it. Did you notice anything like that?? If you put a level on the outside of the wall from the top down, does it touch all the way or go in by the rim??? The walls would still be plumb if you were placing a level on the inside under the floor but it is noticeable outside.
Just curious,
Paul
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vermaraj
New Member
Posts:34
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| 17 Jun 2008 03:58 PM |
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I would like to learn more about this method of bracing and pouring with deck in place. Does anyone have a link to a mfg or technical resource that describes this method?
Thanks
Verm |
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ContractorPete
Basic Member
Posts:115
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| 17 Jun 2008 10:39 PM |
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I am trying out this method for the first time on a 26' x 48' 2 story over in Newport, OR. I am pouring on friday, (~14' to the deck). So far I am very impressed with how rigid everything is. We had two sets of safeway scaffolding set up on wheels and with 6 guys we were setting floor joist on the 3rd day. Ill let you guys know how it goes and post some pictures. - Pete jr. |
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Chris Johnson
Advanced Member
Posts:878
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| 18 Jun 2008 02:56 AM |
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When pouring with the floor system installed I recommend not pouring more then halfway up the ledger. The pressure can cause the block to tilt slightly. You will find it convenient walking on a full platform as opposed to scaffolding and keep one guy in the basement to yell up if anything shifts |
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| Chris Johnson - Pro ICF<br>North of 49 |
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freakboy
New Member
Posts:51
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| 06 Aug 2008 09:02 PM |
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Well believe it or not we are just getting back to work on the next floor on this project (its a fill in job). I only now see that Chris may have been right on pouring halfway up ledger or else the lack of adequate bracing during the deck install did result in some waves on the longest wall which is 48'. I feel this was absolutely avoidable with proper caution and do not blame the technique used. I dont think the waves will be noticeable outside with vinyl siding and will be hard to see with cabinets and partitions.
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| Dont run thru the forest with your face on fire<br> |
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freakboy
New Member
Posts:51
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| 18 Aug 2008 07:36 PM |
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I am updating this thread in hopes that other DIYers will find the info useful. If your a professional comments welcome. As I stated before I am just labor for this project and make suggestions but for the most part try to be an indian as I know too many chiefs on the job kill a project. Because the next set of floor joists are to bear on top of the wall rather than bolted to it he project is now going to be very dependent on the use of home made braces. It became clear on setting the next few couses of blocks that the walls were quickly getting out of plumb this is partly due to all the window/door openings (and of course the longest wall had some waves contributing to it). My suggestion of braces was quickly shot down and we struggled on. Every wall had a door opening in it creating multiple independent walls and it was quickly becoming a nighmare. A call to the factory rep confirmed my suggestion of braces down to the floor deck. A 2x4 was screwed on the flat around the perimeter 4' up from the deck and the wall was set plumb. So much for the no brace system. I suppose the 2nd floor deck could be hung inside the forms again which would reduce the use of braces but the plan is to install another set of bracing 2' down from the top of the pour. I estimate we will be installing them every 6' or so. The lumber can be reused for interior walls but not as nice as fresh ones from a stock pile. |
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| Dont run thru the forest with your face on fire<br> |
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freakboy
New Member
Posts:51
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| 18 Aug 2008 07:36 PM |
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I am updating this thread in hopes that other DIYers will find the info useful. If your a professional comments welcome. As I stated before I am just labor for this project and make suggestions but for the most part try to be an indian as I know too many chiefs on the job kill a project. Because the next set of floor joists are to bear on top of the wall rather than bolted to it the project is now going to be very dependent on the use of home made braces.
It became clear on setting the first few couses of blocks that the walls were quickly getting out of plumb this is partly due to all the window/door openings (and of course the longest wall had some waves contributing to it). My suggestion of braces was quickly shot down and we struggled on. Every wall had a door opening in it creating multiple independent walls and it was quickly becoming a nighmare. A call to the factory rep confirmed my suggestion of braces down to the floor deck. A 2x4 was screwed on the flat around the perimeter 4' up from the deck and the wall was set plumb. So much for the no brace system. I suppose the 2nd floor deck could be hung inside the forms again at the top couse which would reduce the use of braces but, instead the plan is to install another set of bracing 2' down from the top of the pour. I estimate we will be installing them every 6' or so. The lumber can be reused for interior walls but not as nice as fresh ones from a stock pile. |
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| Dont run thru the forest with your face on fire<br> |
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freakboy
New Member
Posts:51
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| 18 Aug 2008 08:12 PM |
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There is a 24x36 garage to be attached to this house and the footing and 4' frost wall were formed and poured by a concrete contractor. The frost wall was insulated with 2" foam before backfilling. ICF forms are now being installed on the 12" frost wall , which fortunately is square and true. I would not recommend this procedure. One problem encountered was how to start the icf either flush with the concrete frost wall or flush with the 2" foam on the frost wall. The homeowner chose to step the icf back flush with the concrete so a detail will need to be worked out to make the transition. |
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| Dont run thru the forest with your face on fire<br> |
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Chris Johnson
Advanced Member
Posts:878
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| 18 Aug 2008 08:41 PM |
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Freakboy, not to discount your theory, anything is possible, but I am a Chief on the job site when it comes to ICF's
Anyone who is a professional or intends to be in this business (basically planning on being a full time ICF installer/company) will purchase a complete set of proper ICF braces, it is only natural to buy the right tool to do the job. Yes, 2x's will work, but that is old school. I can adjust a modern day brace a lot faster then anyone can adjust a 2x if something slips/moves. And to prove my point, no one is on Greenbuildingtalk using a Commodore VIC 20, we are using newer modern machines PC or MAC.
For those DIY's out there, I don't have a problem with anyone doing there own ICF work, some people who have other 'full time' jobs understand ICF and can do. But do yourself a favor, when purchasing your blocks, look beyond the block purchase/price, look for accessories and support. I will be the first to admit you can buy ICF blocks off the net cheaper then I can buy them wholesale from my various suppliers, but lets look at a few things. Your short 5 blocks...can you get them the next day and at what price? You have left overs...can you return them and if so, do you actually get your money back. Now bracing...can you get proper ICF bracing, both picked up and dropped off when needed? You have never done this before, you get started and run into an issue, is you internet supplier able to show up from a few thousand miles away to review the project and make suggestions?
Most ICC reports state that ICF's need to be installed by a qualified technician, or at a minimum approved by one. Who does this approval when you supplier is who knows where? No, the building inspectors don't enforce, if they did quite a few ICF companies wouldn't be around. Even with all my experience and qualifications, I did do a project, the supplier actually flew 1000+ miles to the job, he admitted he did not need to, but it was part of his policy for any project that he attend for the first inspection prior to pour and this would happen for not only this project, but every project, even 100 down the road with me. This is his standard procedure and is adhered to for everyone all the time. Good luck finding that amongst the 80 or better ICF companies out there.
So what's all this rambling for...I know I'm good at it...
If you are DIY and you think you have the skills to do this, great, we are here to help you with certain things. Make sure you have 100% supplier/distributor support ON SITE as needed, make sure they have the experience and tools to help you as needed and finally since you are a DIY and not doing this daily don't try things out of the ordinary such as installing the floor system prior to pour, no matter what, this is in no way a DIY way to do things, there are so many variables that need to be checked and if something goes wrong the costs to repair are unimaginable and the little savings you may realize are not worth the risk.
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| Chris Johnson - Pro ICF<br>North of 49 |
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freakboy
New Member
Posts:51
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| 18 Aug 2008 08:49 PM |
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now for the big one... Bucks. I have researched this forum thoroughly in search of the best method and we are on our third different system. The sales rep wanted us to use v buck and we quickly dismissed this due to cost and because we both felt it would be nice to have wood to nail into.
The factory rep then suggested insetting PT frames in the form. 2x8 frames were built for the basement windows and walk out slider. The ID of the form was 8" so his idea was the remaining space was filled with foam. securing the frames square and level in this system is time consuming because they free float inside the form. If this system were used it would be much easier to add a shim to the 2x8 or rip 2x10 to 8" so it fits snug and does not free float while trying to secure. This system minimizes thermal bridging because there is 2.5 inches of foam on either side of the rough opening frame. I do not like the fact that 3" screws now must be used to secure nailing flange of windows/doors and interior trim (unless the form stud layout was just right). We used spreaders to keep fram from blowing in and used plumbers tape also.
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| Dont run thru the forest with your face on fire<br> |
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freakboy
New Member
Posts:51
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| 18 Aug 2008 09:18 PM |
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because there are a lot of windows and doors for the next pour (1st floor) a new system was desired. I favored the system in which plywood or 2x stock is ripped to the OD of the form and cleats acting as a keyway are attached to it. the cleats are spaced to match the ID of the form and are inset in the form which helps lock the OD stock in the form. This system is explained very well elsewhere in this forum and even in 1 manufactures manual.
What we did instead is a horrible waste of lumber. All of my research and ideas were thrown out the window. A PT frame was constructed just as we had for the basement only instead of making the frames the size of the Rough Openings they were made oversize so that after the pour another frame (KD lumber) will be constructed and installed and that will recieve the doors and windows. Again this was very time consuming because the PT frames just floated around inside the form. Another disadvantage of the frames not fitting secure in the forms was it made the walls extremely sloppy and difficult to keep plumb and in wind with oneanother (see post above about those difficulties).
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| Dont run thru the forest with your face on fire<br> |
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freakboy
New Member
Posts:51
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| 18 Aug 2008 09:18 PM |
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because there are a lot of windows and doors for the next pour (1st floor) a new system was desired. I favored the system in which plywood or 2x stock is ripped to the OD of the form and cleats acting as a keyway are attached to it. the cleats are spaced to match the ID of the form and are inset in the form which helps lock the OD stock in the form. This system is explained very well elsewhere in this forum and even in 1 manufactures manual.
What we did instead is a horrible waste of lumber. All of my research and ideas were thrown out the window. A PT frame was constructed just as we had for the basement only instead of making the frames the size of the Rough Openings they were made oversize so that after the pour another frame (KD lumber) will be constructed and installed and that will recieve the doors and windows. Again this was very time consuming because the PT frames just floated around inside the form. Another disadvantage of the frames not fitting secure in the forms was it made the walls extremely sloppy and difficult to keep plumb and in wind with oneanother (see post above about those difficulties).
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| Dont run thru the forest with your face on fire<br> |
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freakboy
New Member
Posts:51
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| 18 Aug 2008 09:52 PM |
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Chris, the rep is who pushed the first floor deck before pour and I think it would have worked perfect had the forms been secured plump and true prior to the deck install. for the portion we are working on now he simply wanted an I joist screwed perpendicular to the form 2' down from the top. He has braces availible for rent but insisted we dont need them. With all the sloppy door and window openings (see buck problems above) I do not have any confidince in the I joist thing (acting as a whaler). I think the rep has done a disservice by even suppling forms for a garage which is 40% doors and windows (3 overheads, 2 people doors, 3 large windows). I believe in energy efficient construction but that thing should have been stick built. |
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| Dont run thru the forest with your face on fire<br> |
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