How to fix voids in our icf wall
Last Post 18 Aug 2008 01:56 AM by cityslicker. 12 Replies.
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cityslickerUser is Offline
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06 Aug 2008 01:38 AM

we realised that we have water coming into our basement of our new home, we then investigated and saw we voids in our icf wall just above out footing.many spots you can see the other side of the insulation. They range in size from a foot wide and 5 to 6 inches tall, these voids are right above our footing. I am wondering on what product and procedure we do to fix. Our basement slab has not been pured and i have removed the styrofoam all along th footing to make it easier to patch. I have been told a few suggestions, but i need to know what you all think is the best. Any insight on our problem would be great.  

icfcontractorUser is Offline
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06 Aug 2008 09:20 AM
Cityslicker,

You should get a hold of the engineer of record and have them come out and look. This may or may not be a structural issue but your engineer will be able to determine that. They will also have the fix needed that will possibly involve grouting or pressure grouting with a 8000 psi non shrinking grout. This is not an easy fix that a rookie should attempt. This is a job for a professional.

ICF Contractor

PS You say it is a new home, where is the contractor???  This is a construction defect that they should be repairing but you still need an engineer to look at it.
lkazanov2User is Offline
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06 Aug 2008 12:37 PM
Cityslicker,

This is the biggest fear of an install in an ICF job. This is a result of improper consolidation technique, mix design, placement technique.

The ICF by its very nature can hide placement defects, unfortunately they are discovered with problems.

I have researched self consolidating concrete but the consensus is that the forms may not be strong enough to hold it. At any rate the latest PCA 100-2007 recommends mix design in 6 slump range.

All of this may be water under the bridge in your particular case (no pun intended) but may give you some starting points to discuss with your installer.

With regards to the defects in the pour definitely have the engineer review the structure, rebar schedule, how much concrete actually there.

To parge the openings if deemed structuraly sound would be some kind of grout injection.

Also the waterproofing should be checked. Ideally, dimpled membrane draped down the sides to the footer.

Hope everything works out well for you.


Leonard

teslastonesUser is Offline
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06 Aug 2008 02:14 PM
I am not a "ICF professional" but I do have a question or two.
When a hundred foot tall light post is set they leave a gap at the bottom and they double nut. They then dry pack with an appropriate structural grout. I have never seen this "void" injected.
I know the dynamics are somewhat different in stick construction but I would ask how many gaps,voids are in that type of construction.
Waterproofing notwithstanding, where the void is and how large it is also factors in. An engineer's assesment is in order and a qualified repair technician should do the rectification as indicated by the engineer.
(By the way, I have done my share of pressure gouting and injection and such may well be a part of the rectification of this situation. I just wanted to submit the possibility of dry pack as well)
icfcontractorUser is Offline
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06 Aug 2008 07:06 PM
Ikazanov2,

I think if you use a quality form that the installer has taken proper precautions for an SCC you should not have any problem. The forms themsevles should hold an SCC without a problem but you really would have to tighten up all of the corners, bucks and penetrations so you don't have a sideward geyser of concrete. My only issue with an SCC is cost. They are 20% to 30% more than a quality ICF mix and the only thing it saves an experienced crew is most of the guys on pour day are twidling their thumbs but they put more labor into the forms for set up.

ICF Contractor
enermizermuskokaUser is Offline
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07 Aug 2008 02:50 PM
Hello Cityslicker, that truely is a bummer... I will try to help you with this method.
( By all means- it would be wise to have an engineer determine the existing structural soundness.)
If you are good-to go with what is already in place, then proceed with the steps below...

1- First clean any and all of the debris from the cavity with a shop-vac and/or wisk broom.
2-If the foam that you have cut-away is still in good shape, try to fit it back in place and secure it by bracing the area with plywood or strapping.
3- Cut small holes in the foam at the top of the void space, making certain that they are large enough to place a funnel through to the cavity.
4- Purchase a bag (or bags) of Commercial-Grade Hydraulic Water-stop Cement and enough bottles of Concrete Bonding Adhesive to do the job. ( Both products are made by Quickrete, available at Homedepot) Apply the bonding adhesive liberally with a paint brush before closing in the space at step 2.
5- Start mixing the cement to where it can now be poured through the funnel until the void is full to the top. Keep tapping on the outsides as you are filling in the void. Only mix enough that you can handle at a time- and work quickly because it will set-up fast. Replace the hole cut-outs and brace them securely.
- Leave it alone for approx. 40 hours, and it will be harder than stone forever more...

I know there are images showing this proceedure- unfortunately I can't seem to find them right now.
Hopefuly,all that makes sense to you- just trying to help you out....

All the best of luck with this matter.
Take care,
C.Kerr
cityslickerUser is Offline
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07 Aug 2008 08:06 PM
I wish i could get some pictures on here to show exacly what went wrong. I would say that 25% of the wall has a void in it. I have been told to use a non compressing grout with a mixture of concrete adhesive it fill in these voids. I was wondering if a pressurised system would work better than just packing the grout into the void. As far as our contractor fixing this it's been a nightmare to dealing with him as far as time and quality of work. IF I could only turn back time I would have not let this so called professional continue on our house. If you would like I would be glad to email you some pics if it would help to our problem. Thanks to those who have replied.
eric monkmanUser is Offline
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10 Aug 2008 08:13 PM
CS : Yes, pressurizing the grout will make a better repair ,
         but finding each and every location will be very  tough. 

Pumping a very watery/liquid grout with bonding agents, or pumping urethane crack injection materials using grease gun techniques might be successful, keeping the ICF form in place to contain the grout.

I am not sure that urethane injection materials may dissolve the EPS however, so experiment first :-)

Williams rock anchors sells a quality hand grout pump. Google them.

Also contact a local concrete formwork accessories supplier for info, materials and contactor referrals.

You may also need to apply an expansive betonite waterproofing membrane
 around the lower coursing, after grouting.

This material expands and seals when in contact with H20. Very high quality stuff.

There are also other betonite accessories out there for void filling etc,available thru well driller supply houses.

Air gap with directional tile drainge over this to complete your system.

Let us know here, how you make out :-)
irnivekUser is Offline
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11 Aug 2008 12:17 AM
Can't totally quantify without seeing; 25% of the wall, really? Non pressurized non shrink grout should be fine. We used grout bags for hollow metal jamb retrofits in commercial construction, I think these would work great for you, check out your local commercial hardware supplier.

You can check out the Sika products, engineers love them...

Kevin
Ian S. GieslerUser is Offline
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15 Aug 2008 10:39 PM
Where are you located? You may want to enlist someone with an IR camera to to take pictures of the wall......Voids or no voids, you have a waterproofing issue as well....filling voids will not stop water intrusion. Don't waste your time on the bentonite on the interior. You probably don't have a choice on stopping the water intrusion...you will probably need to dig up the exterior side and waterproof the wall. Use of a drainage layer on top of the waterproofing will help. Depending on your location and site, if you truly have 25% void, your later issue will be bugs and vermin if you don't waterproof on the exterior side. You should have the manufacturer of the forms involved for some assistance if you cannot rely on the installer (which I would guess is not a viable option at this point). Find help that is conversant with ICF.
eric monkmanUser is Offline
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16 Aug 2008 10:36 AM
Bentonite expands its volume many times when in contact with H2O ,

therefore it is used only on the "water" side, or foundation exterior.

If the exterior is not accessible and the voids are quite small, is can be used....otherwise the

sheet products (membrane) are your choice.

Yes..... this work cannot be accomplished without accessing the exterior of your basement walls.

There is no substitute for a good functioning perimeter drainage system "big O" with "air gap" technology.


Ian S. GieslerUser is Offline
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17 Aug 2008 08:23 PM
In my limited opinion, bentonite type products are only useful if the area is to remain wet.....These products shrink and crack when the area dries out......then when it gets wet again, the water will pass through the cracks until the bentonite product expands and seals off the cracks. If there is a head pressure or heavy flow of water (which many times is the case against a foundation basement wall that is in an area with clayey soils that also shrink when dry), the water may not permit the "sealing affects" of the clay to work as the water flow erodes the clay and the pressure prevails over the expansive pressure of the clay in sealing the opening.....If there is no water pressure, the clay can seal off the leak....BUT, if any water penetrates the clay membrane, then the damage is done especially if the leak is into a finished area of the structure.
cityslickerUser is Offline
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18 Aug 2008 01:56 AM
We have a engineer coming out tomorrow to look at our situation. So far I 've been told that a non compressing grout with adhesive is the best way to fill these voids.  As far as exterior waterproofing we are using superseal which is a dimple sheeting that is fastened on to the exterior of the icf. I know that it not a complete waterproofing system but rather a damproofing. Though i have been told that a properely installed ICF foundation is suficent waterproofing. The only thing is if the exterior needs to dug up and then also fixed from the outside. I am hoping that we can fix it all from the inside.  
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