My brother-in-law and I own a duplex together that we have outgrown, and are hoping to teardown and build 2 houses in the next year or two.  We are in the early design phase, have yet to approach an architect/designer/builder, but have strong ideas about what we want already.

The main reason we both want ICF's is not for their thermal benefits, but for their SOUNDPROOFING.  We live, QUITE literally, at the end of the runway for the city of Vancouver BC Canada (well, Richmond, actually).  We love the spot, love living next to each other, but obviously would like to mitigate some of the sound issues.  Thermal savings is just a bonus for us.

So, my main question as I design my house is, how do you approach a 2 story design that doesn't have continuous walls on both stories?  (eg, the second floor of my design is smaller than the first).  I'm guessing the answer is, you can't do it with ICF, or at least not cost effectively.  Here's a link to a house design that I am basing my plan on - can it be done 2 stories with ICF or not?

http://www.eplans.com/country_house-plans/HWEPL13201.hwx

It seems to me if it can't/isn't normally done, this would seem to be one of the big disadvantages to ICF, moreso than cost or difficulty finding experienced builders...the whole point of building my own house is I don't want just 'a box'. 

Any help/advice is welcome, thanks


PS no basements in Richmond here - it's a flood plain, so almost all houses near me (including this one) are crawl space.

Chris

You can do the second level ICF other than those walls over the garage and for the Den that are not stacked. You could also support those ICF walls with steel beams, but that increases the cost. Although you may consider this a disadvantage, it is simply ICF walls vs light-weight framing.

ICFs have amazingly soundproof, strong and energy efficient. Light-weight framing is inferior in all ways, other than the weight.

If I were you I would just pick a different plan, there are plenty that are not like a box. And instead of a crawl space, how about a slab on grade?

Maybe the pros can offer an all ICF solution, but I'd consider 1st floor ICF and some kind of SIP for the upper levels than don't line up on top of an ICF wall. You would maintain the the soundproofing you want as well. Dave

Wow, thanks for the fast replies, guys.  Love this forum!

 I haven't investigated SIP's much as yet, not sure about their soundproofing ability, but I guess my main concern with using them, or using stick frame for the parts of the house would be 'inside' the box, is how much am I affecting the soundproofing?  From what I have heard about soundproofing (and I'm no expert, so correct me if you know better), if you have an area that sound can infiltrate, it will, and you have negated much of the effort to soundproof.  Thanks again.

Chris

Chris,

I'm inclined to agree with Farmboy on this or instead of SIPs you could go 2 x 6 with spray foam insulation where ICF seems to be a problem, that should hopefully quiet things down a bit.

Also, there are new innovations in sheetrock that claim to have a tremendously high sound transmittion classification, you could incorporate that as well on specific areas of concern. Please note, I have no personal knowledge of how it performs, you would need to decide that of yourself. Also, I'm sure its more expensive than sheetrock, but could be much less expensive then the steel and other things needed to do the entire house in ICF. Here is one link for you to look at:

http://www.quietsolution.com/html/quietrock.html

Good luck

Couple options the way I see it.
Ad interior demising walls to support your upper floor.
Build an icf beam to support upper
Build ontop of metal beam
Revise your plan and cut a bit of the porch off to match upper

Best of luck
Cheers

chawkey

If you pushed the second floor wall forward by the stairs so it lined up with the wall below, the piece of wall over the den wouldn't be too hard to do.

I have built reinforced concrete beams with ICF forms to span 16 feet. The engineering is there in the manuals. If I can do it, anybody can.

The limitation on your soundproofing will be the roof and windows. That can be true in a well-bult wooden house too, though not in one that uses fiberglass insulation anywhere. Do you have a plan for the roof and windows?

rgb

Thanks for more replies still.

Renangle: I've seen the website for the quietsolution sheetrock before, but it gets astronomically expensive to do the whole house compared to just 'tanking' yourself in an ICF fortress. It seems to be marketed more for soundproofing an internal room (mediaroom). I guess the question becomes (and I doubt anyone knows the answer to this) can you mix ICF and other materials (Quietsolution) and still get a satisfactory result/cost-benefit wise.

RGB: that's a good idea to just beam that part of the 'den' - in fact, my modified drawings turn that den into a mudroom, making the room smaller and lining the wall up parallel to the front door/upper floor. I could care less if the mudroom is soundproof, so could actually just frame that one room out (can you have ICF walls as 'internal' walls?). The problem is more-so the upper level on the left side, in the bonus room, bathroom, and one bedroom. We are looking into some pretty high spec windows with STB ratings around 50, but not sure we'll be able to afford those either. For attic, we are considering a spray foam in the rafters.

Chris

concrete floor and roof out of say Insul-Deck will get you what you need. complete sound proofing and allow you to have an all ICF structure.

There is nothing you can't do when you create a concrete beam with a rebar cage in it. I would stay with concrete and go with a steel beam. Create the concrete beam with proper rebar tie-in into the existing ICF wall - viola, way you go. easy! Just need to know the right calculations for the the beam and the rebar cage - peace of cake.

I meant "don't go with a steel beam". Thanks.

our house is three levels, stairstepped and without vertical support for upper levels. we did this with ICF beams poured in place. structurally sound, but be wary of ICF / Concrete for a roof. i am struggling right now with many leaks www.icicleearthhome.blogspot.com

instead of vertical support do you mean horizontal? and if so did you guys provided a rebar cage for the unsupported icf portion? Just wondering....

the view front of the house steps back. there is no vertical support for the upper levels. it is all engineered ICF horizontal support. see pictures at http://www.icicleearthhome.blogspot.com

sorry icicle, I don't understand, what kind of rebar placement did you insert for the horizontal, unsupported beam/ICF wall?

http://www.icicleearthhome.blogspot.com

skim thru the pics. the rebar is photoed

Thanks, icicle, I am sure and hope you guys did build according to the calculations. Your pictures did not explain the exact rebar schedule! I was hoping to learn something here.

Manfred, why a blanket statement, "don't go with a steel beam"

Thanks, Kevin

I guess I shouldn't speak for Manfred but I think he meant that there is no point using a steel beam if you can just add an appropriate rebar schedule to the concrete wall itself to create a concrete beam. I don't think he meant it as a blanket statement against steel beams.

thanks gregj, got to it to late but you explained it perfectly. My idea of building is not a new way of doing just a new way of rationalizing. You have a concrete structure already. If you can stay within the parameter of concrete (re-inforced/rebar cage) for a support beam then stay with it. A steel beam is not wrong - it is just another substrate added to the "kitchen mix" that will behave differently than concrete. I think it to be best to stay as homogenous with a build as possible. Only my humble oppinion.