Well, you can tell by the number of times I've posted that I'm a newbie.  I've been reading online about ECO-Block, and actually like the tutorials for ECO-Block on YouTube.  So I call their 800 number, and lo and behold they were bought by AARX.  So the lady gave me the number of a local distributor.  I call him, and he tells me that ECO-Block is the low end of the quality spectrum, due to plastic spacers/furring strips.  He says AARX is in the middle and Poly Steel Metal is tops because it has metal spacers/furring strips.  Is that true?  He had some Poly Steel in stock that he's going to give me a good deal on. . .

I gotta get this figured out because I'm ready to start!

Best block is the one he has in stock the reason he has it in stock is he can't sell it ???

I've used Eco-Block and had no problems with it. I prefer Logix but wouldn't hesitate to use Eco again. Yes your chain should be tight with all that pulling.

The big issue I have with metal furring strips is that it seems like over-kill for no reason. Cutting through plastic webs can be a big pain in the neck - steel would only give you more trouble when working with the product. Any ICF I have used has had plastic webs and they never fail from the concrete pressure - so why do you need the added strength of Steel? Perhaps attaching finish materials is easier into steel, but again, I have never had issue with a plastic web so seems like over kill. Why give yourself more work during install if the finished product is the same?

Also, in a cold climate, I would be concerned with the steel transferring cold from outside to inside.

You can cut through the steel web with a plain old circular saw that has a carbide tipped blade. It cuts like butter. The problems with plastic webs include:
Failure in a fire: the web melts and the void allows heat and flame to spread through the wall
Air infiltration: EPS breaths. Since concrete does not adhere to plastic, there is necessarily a series of voids along the plastic webs. Those voids allow air to infiltrate -- that comes from the Air Barrier Association of America.
Plastic is weaker than steel. Steel webs mean fewer blow outs, no question.
Since the steel attachment strips are recessed beneath the surface of the foam there is no thermal bridging to worry about.
Finally, STEEL is much more satisfying to work with and build with than some flimsy old plastic stuff. Face it, do you want a building made of STEEL or plastic?

plastic

I have been working with Eco Block for nine years and have found it to be the most versatile block available ,especially when using Hambro Floor system ,you can cut it at any height you want without afecting the strenght of the block,due to the options of connector placement.As far as comparing stenght of plastic versus metal I can count on one hand the amount of blowouts I have had and most where caused by human error.And for Bruce Polycrete I don,t want a building of steel or plastic I want one with concrete!!!

Fire Failure is not a concern at all - I have heard the stories about fire transferring through the plastic webs before and I do not buy it. You can watch fire tests being performed with blocks containing plastic webs and they easily achieve a 3 or even 4 hour fire rating. These tests are performed with a full wall assembly (ie, including interior finish) and are blasted with cold water after the burn time being tested. If a 4 hour burn is being tested, they allow the wall assembly to burn for 4 hours, then spray with cold water for 1-2 min. There must be no structural problems even with the instant temp change for the wall to pass the test. If you are still in the building after 4 hours, you have bigger things to worry about.

Air infiltration - again you are reaching with this one - air would have to pass through 2-3 inches of EPS, then through a tiny gap between the concrete and plastic and then through another layer of EPS. All of this is sandwiched between stucco/siding and drywall. There will be much more air transfer though windows/doors and the roof.

As far as the strength of the material to prevent blow outs - I have never had an issue with the plastic failing so I don't see any reason to make it any stronger. I could develop a form with 3" thick solid steel cross members and say it is stronger, but the extra strength is totally useless.

The thermal bridging is still a main concern of mine. You are correct in that the web is embedded in the foam, but it is a small amount (maybe 1/2" or so). This gives you about R-2 protecting the steel. As you know steel is not a poor INSULATOR, it is actually a CONDUCTOR of heat. This means that any heat passing through the 1/2" of EPS will be absorbed by the steel and transferred to the interior.

And as far as building with plastic vs. steel - the forms are only structural until the day of the pour. After that it is essentially air space and all your structural requirements are provided by the concrete.

All this being said, PolySteel may be a great product. I have never tried it, but just letting you know what my experience is with Forms that have plastic webs and the reasons I have not yet tried PolySteel.

If you'll notice my name, you will realize that I do not endorse PolySteel. It's true that PolySteel has the steel furring strip near the surface. Polycrete Big Block has it 1-1/2" below the surface. They are able to do that because the block has a web of .16" steel wire within the foam panel itself, thus reinforcing the panel. That's how thay are able to make each block 16 square feet. Also, if you accidentally pour a ten foot lift, there's no fear of the foam breaking...

One other consideration, steel wire cross ties allow you to have a cross tie an inch from a door or window buck and still not impede the flow of concrete -- and that concrete does not have pea gravel either. Plain old 5/8 aggregate... Steel in the form also allows you to use a normal concrete vibrator so you don't get the voids and honeycombing that will inevitably occur with weaker forms that you can't really vibrate.

Another point on the air infiltration: Many commercial architects are standardizing on ABAA certifiied air barriers. Using an ICF with plastic cross ties will require the use of an additional air barrier in order to satisfy the ABAA.

I started out using metal, because thats all I could get. Then I found the predicessor to Aarx, with their plastic ties. It was heaven in comparison to the metal ties. I have never gone back, never will. BTW, I didn't see anyone mention one problem that I saw with metal ties--they rust. Don't know how that affects their performance, it at all, but it always worried me.

You have to be sure the fastening strip is galvanized.... I know Polycrete is, and I believe that PolySteel is as well.

Some of you who know me know that I've been in these discussions a lot in the past. All systems have their good and bad points. If I were hiring a contractor to do it, I'd want him to use the block he was most familiar with. I'd select based on this order: Known quality of the contractor, Cost of the installed system, and type/ brand of the block.

For the first time DIY? Go for it! That's what I'd do. You'll learn a lot and be proud of it. And no matter which one you choose, there will be times you'd chosen a different one. As for the 3 you mentioned? All are certainly good enough to have remained in this competitive of a market for this length of time.
JDC

Thanks for all the responses. My problem now is getting someone to return a phone call or email!! I've tried five ICF dealers so far and they've all blown me off. Crazy. Does anyone on this forum want to quote me some ECO block or logix?

Thanks.

Where are you located?

804-901-6893 Ask for Bryant Wheeler

you can email me [email protected] I think I can help.
Todd

Posted By galnar on 11 Nov 2010 10:45 AM
Where are you located?

AZ

Try Gary Fetters @ 623-640-9770 he is in Maricopa Cty & has a great reputation.

to me its not a question plastic or metal it is a question of full hight webs top of block to bottom of block, if the block is 4 way reversable , does the block lock to gether ,is the web exsposde ,and you are right when UL fire testing is done most blocks pass with a four hr rating metal or plastic .here are the reasons why if your web is metal yes you can cut it with a skillsaw a better option is to cut it with a band saw that way you are cutting both sides at one time and it keeps your cuts more uniform .you brought the name up of polysteel with that block the web has a void top and bottom of 2"3/4 so when you start putting lap siding on you run in to voids where thair is nothing to fasten your siding to so you have to run metal straping about 7" wide to brigde the gap .is the block 4 way reversable that means no top no bottom no left no right polysteel fails on those counts,full hight webs becouse of compression becouse there is a void the block will compress more in that area .does your block choice enterlock to each other with no glues or ties ? becouse of lifting when you vibrate and pull the stinger out the block will lift and vibrating waffel grid the block will blow it out so how do you consolidate waffel grid .  when your PE wants a stronger wall section on a waffel grid block job he or she will ask you to remove foam to make it a flat wall so why not use a flat wall every where. and they will say you will use less concrete with waffel grid that is true but if you get bids to have the the done turn key its about the same price . as for ECO block how much is your time worth it is a you assemble block so they like to give sqft prices but it does not enclude the webs your PE calls that out the more bake fill hight the more webs you will have and the webs only get in the block one way your hands and you better have good gloves your hand will be cutup and brused  .