gerald22,

Best of luck with your build, I hope that it goes smoothly. If you are working on a tight budget, then the chances of installing an ICF floor are somewhere between slim and none - sorry! I always try to be very honest with my clients and tell them if they want ICF floors then it is going to be pretty costly. I think the average that I have seen installed is somewhere around $23 - $25 per sqft, though there may be some on here that can have it done for less.

I think that ICF walls are without question the best way to go, but if it were my house, then I would be using wood for the flooring and roof (maybe a sip roof). I would use sprayfoam the roof and have it be a conditioned area or have it be a vaulted roof and make it additional living space.

Concrete floor systems and roof systems are great and possibly ideal, but I would opt for wood and use the significant dollars saved for other areas of the house like the kitchen/bathroom/theatre/etc.

renangle

Gerald

I would look at hambro as a option for the flooring.  Also don't rule out integra spec for the block.

When I build these will be two good options for myself also

The problem will be that regular untensioned Insuldeck can't span your 30' dimension without supports below, so you will have to have pillars or a bearing wall that goes all the way down through the basement and if you want the second floor to be concrete as well, the supports will have to extend up through the main floor. That means a lot more ICF or other type of interior concrete in the middle of your build.

Since you mentioned three ceiling heights, I am reading your plan as a basement and two stories above ground.

You have to really want that concrete floor for a special reason. Vault. Safe Room. Disaster shelter. It would be possible to get it on your main floor, if you are willing to put enough support wall in the right places in the basement, but the second floor will be out of range due to the reasons mentioned.

AND, it can be very difficult to find a contractor who has enough confidence with Insuldeck to do it for a reasonable price. If you cost out the Insuldeck product and the steel and the concrete, it looks pretty good, but it would be the rare contractor who won't want to put a lot of labor on top of it. You could do that first floor yourself with some concrete laborers for the price you mentioned, but the second floor will certainly have to be wood.

If you want all that footage (30 X 45 X 3) on a budget, you will be way better off using ICF for the outer shell and going with wood inside.

Thanks guys for your answers.

23$-25$ per sq.ft for Insul-deck is too high for me. My other idea was a poured concrete slab covering the top of the basement, done by the same guys and in the same time when they are pouring concrete to form the basement walls. Is it possible? Could it be cheaper than Insul-deck?

Also, what are my options with the wood joists? Can I have 1350 sq. ft. floor done for 5000 $ -6000 $? Or, am I too optimistic ? May be there are some other options in same price range as wood joists?

I read a few posts about ICF connect, does anybody have any experience with these products?

As usual, any feedback is highly appreciated

Posted By gerald22 on 19 Dec 2010 09:09 PM
Also, what are my options with the wood joists? Can I have 1350 sq. ft. floor done for 5000 $ -6000 $? Or, am I too optimistic ? May be there are some other options in same price range as wood joists?

I read a few posts about ICF connect, does anybody have any experience with these products?

If you can manage the search function here do a search on both topics. They've been discussed quite a few times in the past 3 years. There are pros and cons, naturally, to all of the options. I used the ICF connect hangers, I-joists, and Advantech subflooring. Don't know what the final per foot cost was. Material costs vary widely around the country so about all you can is settle on some options and do price comparisons. Here's some of the reasons I used what I did.

ICF connect are about $10 to $15/set. They are quite easy to use. Two big advantages with them, IMO, is you can get a ledger board level all around quite easily, and since you use joist hangers you can make last minute adjustments in joist spacing. The downside is you need to use ledger boards and joist hangers to hang the joists. If you are pretty much 100% confident you know where every joist needs to be then look at using the joist hangers that embed in the ICF form. I don't recall the brand. But realize that last minute changes to things like plumbing and heating penetrations through the floor may be problematic.

I used 9 1/4 by 2 3/8 I joists. They are light and easy to handle and cut. I was told that size was very much a commodity size and about the most economical choice available, but I did not do price comparisons. I put them on 16" o.c. and had a maximum span of about 15'. You can put joists on 24" o.c., which is the most common, but you probably will need to use a deeper joist, and the subfloor has to be thicker to get a stiff floor. I don't know what the material cost trade off is. All I know is my first criteria was a floor that did not have noticeable deflection. Also, the Tile Council of America is cool toward 24" joist spacing.

I used 3/4" Advantech subfloor mainly because tile contractors on a tile forum said that is the absolute best subflooring to put under tile or stone. It's priced between plywood and OSB and is stronger than either. 3/4" Advantech is stiffer than 1 1/8" OSB, if I recall correctly.

This flooring material combination gave me a floor that easily passes the 'china closet' test, i.e., when you jump on the floor the dishes don't rattle in the china closet!

Hi Gerald

I am a NUDURA ICF distributor in the GTA. In regards to the ICF walls for your proposed home, you should have no problem getting it installed within the price range you mentioned.

As far as the floor system goes, I find that the insulated concrete floor systems are generally not economical unless you actually require that much insulation. We distribute a composite concrete floor system (metal pan with concrete) which will easily clear-span 30' with a total floor depth of under 12". The underside can easily be insulated to prevent radiant heating from affecting the temperature of the rooms below. Typical installed prices are around $12 - $13/SF including the pan, rebar, wire mesh, concrete, temporary shoring, labour and placing  & finishing of concrete. One of the other replies mentioned Hambro. This is also a good choice. The main downside to Hambro is that your overall floor depth will be greater than with the composite deck system, which will result in additional costs for more square footage of ICF walls and exterior finish. Please contact me toll-free at 877-351-5603 if you would like additional info on either system. We also stock the ICF Connect system.

I don't think I have ever seen 24 inch span brtween joist,I don't even think it would meet code in Ontario???

I just came across a set of plans for a project in the GTA specified with Weyerhaeuser ILevel joists @ 24" on centre, and thought the same thing. However, when I checked the floor plywood specs it showed 7/8" ILevel Edge Gold Panel T&G SF.

In residential construction, 24" oc spacing is common in floor joists, as is 19.2" OC . Floors carefully value engineered often will have different spacing’s in different parts of the house.
A floor is a system comprised of carrying beams, joists, subfloor, overpayment, and finished flooring. They all have to be designed to work together. . It is often a trade off, wider joist spacing’s, thicker subfloor, span length, etc.
A floor is designed to a deflection number based on what type of floor covering is used. A floor with carpeting can have alot of deflection between joists without issues, a floor with slate, not so much. Also you have to account for how much bounce a floor will have. Even if floors are perfectly capable of handling the loads on them, a bouncy floor is not acceptable to most people. You also have to consider the live and dead loads required for different rooms in the house. They are not always the same.
Normally the floor will be spaced by deflection numbers, deflection per length. A typical floor is speced at L/240 or for every 240 inches length wise the floor can deflect 1” and still be acceptable. Floors that will get ceramic tile are usually L/480, and natural stone floors are L /720.

Last thought. It is much easier to make a floor stiffer in the first place, then to stiffen it up later. If you are doing a bathroom area and just using vinyl flooring, there is a good chanced some day it will be tiled. If you spec it to L 480 or greater, it is easy to do. If not it can be a lot of retrofitting.
Cheers,
eric

Hi Gerald22,

Why you think of using insulated concrete floor? Is there any particular reason?

My opinion is to use this money for quality WINDOWS so that you create a very well insulated outside buiding cocoon/shell.

We priced the insulated concrete floor system several times, but the client never went for it. To expensive in most residential applications.

I would look into ICF ledger connectors (Ex. Simpson) in combination with wood floor joists or metal floor joists (Trade ready from Dietrich steel - they go up to 38' span). L/480 is fine.

The pricing for the walls is what we charge here in MA.
For a monolitic concrete floors/ceilings (not icf) we are in the range of $17 to $19/sf for commercial applications.

i live in an icf house with insuldeck floors and roofs.
QUIET, QUIET, QUIET.....
never had that with wood framed or wood trussed floors or roofs before.
in fact so quiet we had to get rid of our wall clocks and opt for digital replacements to eliminate the ticking during sleeping hours. we also bought extra quiet appliances for the same reason.
same goes for outside noises, they are all but eliminated.
now if we could only teach our cats not to chomp down on the dry food so hard....
allthough we live in florida and dont need it, radiant flooor heating is a great benefit of a concrete floor system, especially in tiled or marbeled bathroom floors.
and for us, hurricane protection is the real benefit.
saves us close to $3000.00 per year in hurricane insurance.
happy holidays to all...
[email protected]

Just curious, why do you want a full basement vs a frost protected slab on grade with a larger footprint?

I use composite concrete over metal decking with 12K1 joists spanning 16ft. The house footprint is 32ft x 32ft. There is a W18x55 steel beam in the middle of the basement ceiling bolted to WT4x9s welded to concrete embeds. The beam supports the joists and concrete walls above extending all the way up to the concrete flat roof.

Each floor / ceiling is 750sf (it's not a square but is arranged as an L).

Cost is $9/sf installed.

Breakdown:
Open web steel joists (spaced 30in C-C) and metal deck: $9000
Structural steel beams + embeds: $2000
Rebar: $1500
Concrete (4in slabs): $2500
Pump rental (3 times) for a total of $2000
Concrete crew (3 times, power trowel finish) for a total of $3600

Total cost: $20600 for 3*750sf = 2250sf of concrete floors / ceiling / roof.
About $9/sf

All steel erection (except welds) and rebar work DIY.

I basically agree with gerald22: having been an architect mostly in Colorado & Kansas my first SIP roof was in 1997 and my first ICF project a small restaurant in 1995. our largest project combining ICF with a SIP roof was a 4500 sq. ft. custom home in 2000 in Aspen, Colorado. our floors were radiant tubing in lightweight concrete fill 2 1/2 inch min. on 3/4 inch plywood subfloor over TJI or solid wood framing.

agree with Fire&Water...... a SIP roof R50 can make all the difference in the world. and there is no substitute for good windows.

Hi Fire&Water,

One reason is extra sound proofing, (just read the post by insuldeckflorida below). I have two generation family and soundproofing floors is very important to me. Other reason is solidity of construction, somebody mentioned here the "china test" I am under impression that concrete floor are more solid and less likely to deteriorate with the time than the wood joists.


insuldeckflorida
Thank you for sharing. That is exactly what I expected from the ICF floors. But 25$ per sqf is too expensive for me.

Hi jonr,
Slab on grade was my initial idea, but after I received quotes from two local contractors it turned out that slab on grade will cost me almost 10k more than traditional basement. So, extra cost is the only reason.


Hi galore,
Are you using any particular system? I recently learned about Comslab composite roofing system, which appears to be exactly what you are describing. Are you happy with your floors?

Posted By gerald22 on 26 Dec 2010 09:25 PM
Hi Fire&Water,

One reason is extra sound proofing, (just read the post by insuldeckflorida below). I have two generation family and soundproofing floors is very important to me. Other reason is solidity of construction, somebody mentioned here the "china test" I am under impression that concrete floor are more solid and less likely to deteriorate with the time than the wood joists.

Since you will have a conditioned environment above and below the floor most any material is going to outlast you and your next generation. Sound proofing throws a whole 'nuther curve into the project. Even a concrete slab, if it's not thick, like maybe 4+ or 6+ inches, will transmit sound. Along with the floor itself you will have to take into account any and all penetrations through the floor such as heat ducts. It only takes a very small air passage to transmit sound from one space to another.

Off the top of my head I think your best solution, considering budget constraints, is a wood joist floor with carpet on the upper side. If you go with carpet you can keep the joist size and the subfloor thickness to a minimum. In the non carpet areas use vinyl. Just do plenty of gluing and screwing of the subfloor to the joists. Then put a layer of spray foam insulation on the underside of the floor deck, maybe a couple of inches. Put a suspended ceiling on the first story with sound insulating tiles that don't contact the joists, or put nailing strips crosswise on the joists and sheet rock on the nailers. You want to minimize, or eliminate, the cross sectional area of the sound transmission path between the upper and lower surfaces of the floor system. Think in terms of a double studded sound proof wall where the wall finish on each side does not connect to the other side through the studs.

The 'china closet' test, which I mentioned earlier, relates solely to how rigid the floor is. That's a concern only as it relates to tile and stone flooring and how much 'shaking' you want to avoid that is caused by traffic on the floor. That consideration has almost nothing to do with sound transmission through the floor.

Hi gerald 22

The product that Galore is referring to is probably a 3" deep composite deck, which will clear span up to about 15', and costs about what Galore mentioned in his comments. I used that system for my own ICF home, which is a 2800 SF bungalow with radiant hydronic heating on both floors. It was built in 1997. It is very quiet and performs well. The total floor thickness is only 6". The Comslab system will give you clear spans of over 32', and may be competitive with the 3" pan when you factor in the elimination of steel beams and columns. I can send you technical info if you want.