I see that Nudura makes a pre-made 45 degree angle, but I need both 30 and 60 degree angles. Are there companies that offer these? How difficult is it to just cut a standard block to whatever angle you want? Should this be a factor in selecting a certain block?

Thanks in advance

Greg

Gregw,

At trade shows I have seen ICF corner blocks that swivel to almost any degree.  Someone on this forum may remember the brand name.

Quad-Lock makes an adjustable angle bracket.

http://www.quadlock.com/insulated-concrete-forms/corner_brackets.htm

Greg,
Polycrete makes no molded corners. They are an inherent weakness in overall ICF design and cause many of the common problems with ICF construction -- specifically corners that are out of plumb. Despite what you may hear on this forum, that is the most common complaint that commercial GCs have with ICF projects.
Polycrete Big Block has a .16" steel wire mesh inside the EPS foam panel that creates sufficient structural integrity in the block that corners can be created just by cutting back the inside panel and butting the ends together. A very cool aluminum corner brace completes the system and you get a perfect corner every time. Their install manual also contains a table that tells you how to cut to make just about any angle you need.
Because of the unique design of Polycrete Big Block, the ICFs need to be made on special equipment and not by just any contract EPS molder. At one point, the company engineered a special mold to make molded corners with the reinforcing mesh inside, but left it on the shelf when they realized that they really did not need it.

Gregw,

First, the block that originally brought the folding corner to market was ARXX -- I believe they were Blue Max at the time and later became ARXX. I do not know if they still make it or not.

I can't agree with Bruce on the industry having some kind of problem with out of plumb corners. I've never seen it. An experienced installer won't care to much one way or the other about cutting in an odd angle.

That said, you are better off selecting a block that has the basics covered or making regular corners or forty fives will slow you down. Regards.

Tex,
You've never seen an out of plumb corner? Denying a problem exists will not make it go away. The value of a forum like this is that it addresses and offers solutions to the issues that arise in our industry.

While it's true that blame for an out of plumb corner rests on the shoulders of the installer, some manufacturers are working to devise systems that make it easier to make a better ICF building in less time. Polycrete is not alone in this. They know that others in the industry are working to improve the industry's overall product offering, and a better overall product will result in a bigger overall market. So we all win.

Bruce,

Let me try to be more specific. I've never seen an out of plumb corner that was caused by the manufacturer -- which clearly was the nature of your suggestion - that the ICF industry or manufacturer somehow was working to overcome this in some way or that since Polycrete has chosen not to make pre-fabricated corners there was some kind of problem in the industry with corners. There is no problem in the industry with corners that I am aware of.

Furthermore, having installed hundreds of thousands of square feet of ICF -- I know from experience that it is far easier to keep a square corner plumb and square than to create a corner from scratch and keep it plumb and square. Nor can any installer make corners faster than the same installer can stack corners that are 'already corners' to begin with. A common commerical detail is the transition from say 6" to 8" of concrete in the corner and even then it is still easier and faster to use an existing corner of one or the other in the process. Regards.

.

The problem in the industry with corners is that The Corner is the problem in the ICF wall. It is the weak spot. The point most likely to result in an unacceptable job.

In one repect, you have hit the nail on the head, Tex. Stacking molded corners does not make a corner plumb. But many think it does. Take a closer look at the Polycrete Corner System. The corner guide is set in place and plumbed after the first course is laid down. Once that is done, you do not have to think about that corner again. Unless you run into it with a truck, it will stay plumb. Ron White says, "You cant' fix stupid". But some ICF manufacturers are trying to engineer it out.

The "making" of the corner takes seconds, and since you're installing 3 times the number of square feet in the same number of motions, you're job site is less cluttered, you have fewer parts to keep track of and you can't help but finish faster. But I have to stop here because I don't want to get beat up again for "advertising" for free. Here's a link Click on the words "Big Block" on the left and see how it goes together.
Happy New Year

Again. No problem exists in the industry with corners not with my block of choice or the many others available. Corners are not a weak spot. Stacking molded corners definately makes making corners easier and faster and again it is far easier to install a corner than to make one. This is clear, not only based on the time it takes to make it but more importantly the time it takes to brace it-- something I do not do. I did reveiw your presentation and suggest you review some of the photos for code compliance - e.g. handrails and rebar comming out of the slab - both at the foundation and going into your second pour. It's not a bad show at all but you will turn off serious commerical contractors that place a heavy emphasis (appropriately) on safely and code compliance. Regards.

Posted By TexasICF on 30 Dec 2010 04:04 PM

Let me try to be more specific. I've never seen an out of plumb corner that was caused by the manufacturer

Well, two years ago I could have clearly shown you one, my house which I was building. I discussed it in this thread - http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/4/aft/36038/afv/topic/afpgj/2/Default.aspx#6002.

I had a bad batch of corner blocks from Buildblock. The corner of each block was on average about 1/8" to 3/16" higher than the ends of the block. The result was that in a stack of 8 to 10 blocks the corner tipped out about 1" to 2" and the stack was about 1" to 1 1/2" higher at the corner than was the adjoining straight wall.

This very well may have been a one time problem. By the time I discovered the problem I had so many blocks locked in place that Buildblock replaced only one pallet load. Caused a h*** lot of frustration getting the corners plumb and the straight blocks to fit in one wall section that was only 10' long.

The cause was very clearly a mold control problem, i.e., the mold was not tightly closed when the foam was injected into it.

All I can say is if you have never encountered mis-molded corner blocks count yourself fortunate.

dmaceld,
The problem you experienced can also occur as a result fo the EPS not being properly cured before shipping. EPS shrinks somewhat after it's molded. Anomalies in density that are not apparent with freshly molded forms can become very apparent as the EPS cures and the shape becomes deformed. That also explains the size discrepancies that you will sometimes find from block to block. Cure time at room temperature is 2 - 3 weeks; faster in a heated curing chamber.

Bruce

As usual you throw in your shameless self-promotion. If you have ever done any ICF installations you would have discovered two things. Molded corners do need to be braced to be held plumb and factory cut corners are very time consuming and need to be braced extremely well to be held plumb. Having installed hundreds of thousands of square feet of walls I will always choose a molded corner and properly brace it to keep it plumb. Odd angles as well as radius walls require field cuts and therefore will need good bracing and can be done with very good success when done correctly.

I'm guilty Quaker, I confess to the shamlessness. My exuberance is hard to keep under wraps! With regard to corner bracing, thanks for making my point for me.  Happy New Year!

Sorry Bruce, meant to say "field cut corners" not "factory cut". Happy New Year!

I have used many brands of ICFs, would like to try Polycrete too. However factory corners are the most naturally plumb part of the ICF system. To field cut corners costs considerable extra time (money) to cut and brace. Maybe Big Block is easier than others to field cut, but it is not easier than a flippable reversible pre-made corner.

Sorry, guys, I can't continue this thread without getting kicked off for advertising. Let me close by suggesting that Polycrete Big Block is SO different from every other form you've installed that you can't compare it to your experience with other products -- the old "apples and oranges" analogy.
Think of it like this: If the only car you've ever driven is a 1979 Chevette, and every time you take a corner at 40 mph, it rolls over, you might be inclined to say that you can't drive a car around a corner at 40 mph. Well let me introduce you to my Ferrari. Thanks again for your interest. See you all next year.

OK it sounds like any of the systems can cut a non-typical corner, it just takes more time and skill. In context I'm talking a 950 sf basement with one floor above. (4) 90's, (1)60, (2)30 degree angles. four regular and 3 odd, almost half, how big an impact does this have on the overall cost of this project?

I know that a lot of members here are ICF contractors and bias on the subject (which is fine) but I'm trying to decide what is the best bang for my buck. 2" rigid insulation on a standard pour in place concrete wall that maybe 20 contractors can do (very competitive) or ICF with like 2 guys here in Louisville. I know that the ICF is better but in a 950sf house, one ICF and the other using standard basement and EEBA advanced framing technique, (3" spray-on polyurethane). What kind of cost difference would there be and how long is the pay back. Opinions?

Two 30 degree angles for a basement and one story should be absolutely no problem at all for an experienced installer using a quality product. There are plenty of qualified installers in Kentucky.

If it is choice between complicated design and quality of the structure, why is there a question?