> Otherwise, it just becomes a race to the price bottom and no one wins that game.

No one except the consumer. As the industry is currently set up the consumer is deciding on wood frame.

You mentioned liteform. Believe you me, I have scoured the ICF market far and wide and investigated most all products. I came to the conclusion that no matter what you're going to pay more or less the same price for the blocks, regardless of which manufacturer you buy from. Also, liteform is not interchangeable. I doubt you can take liteform ties and use them with BuildLlock panels, or vice versa. The BuildLock panels are not even going to be produced any time soon in the BuildBlock plant that is 2 hours drive away from me. So kudos to LiteForm and BuildLock, but unless they start being interchangeable and become an open standard of the industry, neither is going to pan out very far in my opinion. The only technology that I have seen come close to what I describe is the tfsystem vertical ICF's. They provide the rails and lateral ties, and you can supply your own styrofoam on the spot. So what do they end up doing? Pricing their ties and rails so high that they won't undercut the competition.

I see another option that in my opinion will happen. Some cheap chinese manufacturer is going to forgo styrofoam altogether, and start selling only the rails and ties for really really cheap. Just like with TF System one will be able to insert one's own styrofoam sheets purchased locally into the rails and the whole wall will be held together with the ties. Where I am at you have a styrofoam shop that sells just the sheets, custom sizes, custom density, for very inexpensive. That's all they sell. They even sell the sheets to KB homes as additional exterior insulation for wood-frame houses. When the cheap chinese shipping containers with plastic ties start rolling in all of the current ICF manufacturers will be blown away out of the market. Only then will ICF's be able to compete with wood frame because one will be able to buy rails and ties at most corner lumber and hardware shops.

Posted By jacktca on 21 Mar 2011 01:56 PM
> Otherwise, it just becomes a race to the price bottom and no one wins that game.

No one except the consumer. As the industry is currently set up the consumer is deciding on wood frame.

You mentioned liteform. Believe you me, I have scoured the ICF market far and wide and investigated most all products. I came to the conclusion that no matter what you're going to pay more or less the same price for the blocks, regardless of which manufacturer you buy from. Also, liteform is not interchangeable. I doubt you can take liteform ties and use them with BuildLlock panels, or vice versa. The BuildLock panels are not even going to be produced any time soon in the BuildBlock plant that is 2 hours drive away from me. So kudos to LiteForm and BuildLock, but unless they start being interchangeable and become an open standard of the industry, neither is going to pan out very far in my opinion. The only technology that I have seen come close to what I describe is the tfsystem vertical ICF's. They provide the rails and lateral ties, and you can supply your own styrofoam on the spot. So what do they end up doing? Pricing their ties and rails so high that they won't undercut the competition.

I see another option that in my opinion will happen. Some cheap chinese manufacturer is going to forgo styrofoam altogether, and start selling only the rails and ties for really really cheap. Just like with TF System one will be able to insert one's own styrofoam sheets purchased locally into the rails and the whole wall will be held together with the ties. Where I am at you have a styrofoam shop that sells just the sheets, custom sizes, custom density, for very inexpensive. That's all they sell. They even sell the sheets to KB homes as additional exterior insulation for wood-frame houses. When the cheap chinese shipping containers with plastic ties start rolling in all of the current ICF manufacturers will be blown away out of the market. Only then will ICF's be able to compete with wood frame because one will be able to buy rails and ties at most corner lumber and hardware shops.

Mr/Mrs Jacktca:

I have followed your comments for a while and (like several of the other regulars on here), I have no clue what the point of this discussion is about.  It seems like you are "tilting at windmills" as Quixote did.

From this last post, it sounds like you are proposing ONE system.  Might you also be on the GM, Ford and Chrysler websites proposing that all of their parts interchange too.  If there is a site for dentures, perhaps one set could be made and we all just grind our gums to fit.  

There is a small issue of patents that people pay hundreds of thousands of dollars. 

I believe in Free Speach but as with most things free ... you often get what you pay for.  It would appear, we are really getting our money's worth out of your implausible suggestions. 

Jack,
The depth and breadth of your knowledge with respect to the ICF industry and particularly economic market forces is truly breathtaking.

I would love to see a bracket only product, where you supply your own foam.
But it would require much more than brackets, how about to connect each row, how about T shapes and corners?
if buildblock is already very labor intensive, I can only imagine how a fully component-based system would be... it would take forever to assemble the foam with all the attachments needed. good for do-it-yourselfers, bad for contractors. not many houses are built by owner, so I'm not sure the product would be popular.

To BrucePolycrete: The only market force I'm concerned with is the bathroom mirror.  I have to look into it and not see a sucker.  I'm finding it difficult to do just that with the offerings of the ICF industry as they exist today.

To those of you who do not understand what I am lobbying for it is this.  In contrast, with wood frame construction, one can go down to the local lumber or hardware store and pick up quantity one 2x4 for $2.   Lowe's 2x4's are interchangeable with Home Depot 2x4's, etc..    With ICF's you have 10-15 esoteric manufacturers providing highly proprietary solutions.   Since the styrofoam component of ICF blocks is so bulky and facilities are located in distant states more often than not huge shipping costs are involved.   Also, there is the added pique of having to order more than you really need because the material is not readily available close by.    The discussion is about whether the problems associated with ICF's are really necessary and about the alternatives.

Now, getting back to BeachBoy's comments.   BuildLock and LiteForm offer plastic ties which can be used only with their panel products.   So what if they sell me the tie for $0.50 if their panels cost $15.50 when I can get a regular BuildBlock or Reward Block or FoxBlock for $16.00?  It might save a little on shipping, that's all.

If you want to see an example of the use-your-own styrofoam mantra look at tfsystems.    Below is a link to their new/improved product.   Their previous product seem to require more formidable bottom/top rails.  Notice how they let you install 4" outside and 3/4" inside?  Their corners are just a different shaped rail.   Interesting idea but they priced it so high that it won't save any money over conventional blocks+shipping.    It might even come out to be more expensive.

http://www.tfsystem.com/Portals/0/Susans_Folder/TransFormflyerwebsite1.pdf

Another example of a pirate solution, probably not permitted for most plans, are the h-forms.   They're 1" thick sides 4" core blocks, and you glue on extra styrofoam as wanted/needed.   Officially they're to be used for sound walls and garden walls, but if you're doing a pirate not permitted project I suppose you can use them for residential walls.   Their gallery shows walls that look to be roughly 7'6" tall.   Their blocks cost $6 apiece.  Only straights are needed because every fourth block is closed off at the end.   I would guess you just punch out the ends or the corners where needed.

http://www.h-forms.com/gallery.html

What I really think will get everybody's attention is if somebody in China sees that the ICF industry in North America is for the taking and starts producing something like what tfsystem has but for a price much closer to the true cost of production.   How much can it cost to stamp out these cross ties and rails?

Okay, on the there is a small issue of patents that people pay hundreds of thousands of dollars. That's true, but patents don't last forever. Let's use another industry to make the point since it seems some of you may be taking offense because the issue is hitting a little too close to home.

Drug companies spend millions making a drug and maintain the patent as long as possible. I'm sure you all know what happens when the patent expires on a very marketable drug. Other manufactures make knock-offs of the drug and the price plummets for the generics and the brand name price drops, too.
 
If there is money to be made by being more efficient or cutting margins, someone will come up with a way.
 
Over the last few years we've seen some consolidation in the ICF market. That trend is likely to continue. The current marketing conditions may actually speed the process along unless you all are selling more than the news is reporting construction starts to be.
 
Using the car example, in the beginning there were many brands. There was consolidation that got rid of Packard’s and others as seen at  http://www.american-automobiles.com/ . Recently, GM had a little consolidation of their own doing away with Pontiac and Oldsmobile.

I think that is Jacktca's point as defined to what has happened in other industries as they mature.

making ties in china is not the problem, but I would guess even generic tie & rails systems are patented.
Countless patents are granted even when the writer of the patent has no idea how to design or make their part. They can patent a "system to attach insulating material in a manner to pour concrete and create surfaces" and that's it. Without any intention of making them or having any clear method/engineering of doing so.

I've looked at a few patents.

this one looks nice, and seems it can be used with regular styrofoam: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5852907.html (check the pdf) but it's only for the straight walls.

The future may hold great surprises --- but I've seen enough horizontal and veritical ICF to know that horizontal will remain ahead. Marketing is one thing and pouring is another. Vertical seems okay for very simple applications but that's just not the way the cookie crumbles. Regards.

Posted By jacktca on 21 Mar 2011 07:25 PM
... BuildLock and LiteForm offer plastic ties which can be used only with their panel products.   So what if they sell me the tie for $0.50 if their panels cost $15.50 when I can get a regular BuildBlock or Reward Block or FoxBlock for $16.00?  It might save a little on shipping, that's all.

Your costs are way out of whack for the Lite-Form product.  I have a quote here from Lite-Form dated 1/21/10.  Material costs are as follows (these are for 8" concrete core basement wall with 2" EPS foam on each side):

8" tie = $0.39
8" corner tie = $1.82
8"x48"x2" thick molded EPS plank = $1.62

The molded Type IX EPS foam plank costs $0.61/sq ft for 2" thick material. 

The complete material quote for 1920 sq ft of wall (192' linear ft @ 10' high) with 4 corners was $4,325 or $2.25/sq ft.  This obviously doesn't include concrete or rebar.

I purchased some 1" thick 4'x16' sheets of Type IX EPS with borate from a local supplier to put under my slab.  The cost was ~$0.35/sq ft.  If it had been 2" thick material the cost would have been close to $0.70/sq ft.

The Lite-Form EPS panels are competitive in price with bulk sheets of EPS foam and no cutting is required (except to make the corners and accommodating window and door bucks).

Jack

Your premise about "Lowe's 2x4's" and "Home Depot's 2x4's" is incredibly flawed. Lowes or Home Depot don't make 2x4's ... or anything at all. They distribute what others make. That's a huge difference.

I have patented several products myself and they can be modified over time to renew them. Based on safety, performance and liability, you will not get generic systems. If the patents run out and generic products come on the market, you would have a whole new set of unbelievable headaches and I expect mostly out of China. At least with corporate names to them, there is quality control. I can't speak about other companies but FoxBlocks are made by an ISO 9000 company. That is a very big quality control and credibility rating. http://www.foxblocks.com/Our-Company.aspx

If ICF ever goes generic, anybody with an ounce of logic would still be sticking with quality control. Do you recall the pet food coming out of China where they put Melamine in it to increase the protein content rating!!! Some products can be made successfully but some cannot. Would you be buying a generic (Made in China) pace maker for your heart??

Then there's a little thing like product certification and engineering tests for these products. I don't know where you are from but we need a product that is tested and has a certification number. Without it, you can't use it.

Products are patented as a system, not just a collection of components like your example of Lowe's 2x4's and Home Depot framing nails. If some bozo decided that Styrofoam or EPS was too expensive and used a cheap bead board product and (as with TF), cut the grooves in a different location, then the strength changes dramatically and could make it blow out as soon as the first concrete hit the footing.

It is still beyond me why you go on with this. You are communicating with end users. Your lobby should start with the people who have the power to do something about your complaints ... namely, the government agencies that make the rules.

With that, adieu. This thread is such a waste of time and will resolve nothing.

> It is still beyond me why you go on with this.

OK, I give up. It's not my industry anyway. It's a mess, but I didn't create the mess, and obviously, looking at this discussion I am not going to fix it.

Currently as it is I regret the day I agreed to my architect's idea of using ICF's. I'm angry and sore at the way the industry is structured and I'm not happy with the architect. However I reserve the right to change my mind after the construction is complete. I have to say that I have heard wonderful things about ICF's from people who live and occupy the structures. Besides, pain in the past doesn't hurt. Currently as it is I am the laughing stock of my neighbors and construction friends. According to them nobody but a total idiot or moron builds using ICF's. The local county building department doesn't even know what the acronym ICF stands for. The whole system is against ICF's and for wood frame. Why? Take a look at the last few posts to answer that question. I quote my ex-wife's third husband "Why are you playiing around with this crazy technology? You should have just built the thing out of 2x4's." Could have, should have, would have. My only hope for redemption is that the end results will justify the crazy and torturous means.

jacktca,

I am sorry that you are not happy with the architect, that you are the laughing stock locally, and that you have been somewhat berated on this forum. That said, when you take an adversarial position non the forum, others might get a little defensive and well....here we are.

From the onset if you would simply come on here and ask some relatively simple questions, explain the situation, etc., we might have been able to make this entire project much easier for you, the clients, and everyone else. Hell its possible that we could make you and the architect look great to your peers.

As someone that works in the ICF industry, I did a relatively quick search and found that Build Block (they are a good block - no I do not work for or distribute them) has a manufacturing facility in McFarland, CA (which happens to be in SoCA). They also have a master distributer/installer in Frazier Park, CA. I would think for a project that you were looking to do the distributer could have helped, if not a sales representative for the manufacture.

Perhaps this would have been helpful in hindsight, perhaps not....however from what I have been able to see over time, those that tend to embrace this forum and ask questions normally find it very helpful. Due to the direction of that this threat took, I elected not to get into the argument as it gets a bit old.

renangle I know about the McFarland plant.   They sell 6" core blocks.  The proximity of the plant is the reason I am upset at my architect.  He locked me into a plan using 4" core blocks.   So I have to pay $1200 to ship those from Colorado when I have a 6" core block factory next door, 1.5 hours drive away.   According to the McFarland folks 4" blocks do not meet local earthquake standards.  OK, let me double check that.   Let me ask the county folks.   The county building people don't even know what the acronym ICF stands for.   So I go back to the architect and ask him how much it will cost to just change the one little number which specifies wall thickness from 9" to 11"?    Wouldn't you know?   To change the plans cost just as much as to ship the 4" blocks from Colorado.   So... to make a long story short, look at the subject of the thread.   It's titled "challenges".    This is the kind of challenges you will be faced with.

Now, somebody mentioned LiteForm blocks.  You pay $2.25/sq. ft. for the styrofoam.   Guy down the road in Lancaster has a custom styrofoam shop.   Quantity two 2.5" thick styrofoam sheets, the same kind/density that go on the sides of KB homes, will cost you $24.   That comes out to $0.75/sq. ft.    Why would I want to pay $2.25/sq.ft. + shipping from Nebraska when I could get the same raw material locally 40 minutes drive away for $0.75/sq. ft.  ?

Posted By jacktca on 22 Mar 2011 04:39 PM
Now, somebody mentioned LiteForm blocks.  You pay $2.25/sq. ft. for the styrofoam.   Guy down the road in Lancaster has a custom styrofoam shop.   Quantity two 2.5" thick styrofoam sheets, the same kind/density that go on the sides of KB homes, will cost you $24.   That comes out to $0.75/sq. ft.    Why would I want to pay $2.25/sq.ft. + shipping from Nebraska when I could get the same raw material locally 40 minutes drive away for $0.75/sq. ft.  ?

The quote I provided for $2.25/sq ft from Lite-Form included the ties to hold the wall together.  It doesn't appear that you have considered that cost in your local foam estimate of $0.75/sq ft.  And even just your foam estimate seems low.  Was the EPS foam you were quoted Type IX 2 pound nominal density EPS?  What is a KB home?

Are you in a seismic area?  What is the rebar schedule in your 4" wall?

It seems most of your problems are a lack of research before you started this project and with your architect choosing a non-standard ICF form for your region.  There is probably a reason the local ICF plant doesn't manufacture 4" forms.

I'm about 1 mile from the San Andreas fault.   That's the big one! 

My architect specified #4 rebar every 14" vertically and 16" horizontally, near doors #5 rebar every 6".    He also specified Reward ICF blocks.   I contacted Reward and they have seismic zone specs, but the specs blanket all core sizes together.   I don't think Reward or anybody has seismic specs specific to core size.   The factory in McFarland just used the seismic issue as an excuse for not providing 4" core blocks.   They only make 6" blocks because they mass produce and have invested in that and only that type of mold.   It seems to be most popular, but uses up alot of space and concrete.

You say, "It seems most of your problems are a lack of research".   So true.   ICF's in my opinion are not by any means ready for prime time.   Had I to do it all over again, I probably would have done the project anyway, using 4" ICF's.   Only this time I would have been more aware of the headaches and not be so surprised.

There was one hangup by the way that was solved by the local inspector.   Initially I wanted high ceilings, 9'3".   With the seismic question going on and the 12 blocks per pallet rule that would have been a big problem.   8 feet of corners comes out to exactly 2 pallets = 24 blocks.   One row higher and you have to buy an extra pallet of corners and waste 2/3 of a pallet as a result.   I had a heart-to-heart with the local inspector and he said that as long as the house is 7'6" or higher (will now be 8 feet in my case) he's fine with it.   So I'm going to forgo the high 9'3" ceilings.   I'm also not going to pay my architect to change the plans.  If my architect raises a stink I'm going to use the seismic insecurity excuse.   Better to have 8' high walls rather than 9'3" high walls if things start shaking:))  Besides, it's much easier to transport 10 pallets of ICF's on your trailer from Colorado than 13, and not pay for the wasted 2/3 pallet of unused corners. 

Word to the wise: Stick with increments of 4' when designing walls that use ICF's or risk throwing out a bunch of extra corners.  Pallets of corners come in quantity 12.

x

jack,

I recommend that you find and download a copy of HUDs "Prescriptive Method For Insulating Concrete Forms in Residential Construction", Second Edition dated January 2002, and read up on the Seismic Design Category D for Seismic Zone 4. Actually, being that close to a major fault line may place in Seismic Design Category E which is beyond the Prescriptive Method and requires engineering design.

Here is one source for the HUD Prescriptive Method for ICFs document:

http://www.buildblock.com/pdfFiles/prescriptivemethodforicf_2ed.pdf

"Minimum wall thickness shall be 5.5 inches (140 mm) in Seismic Design Category C, D1, and D2."

"Wood sill plates attaching roof framing to ICF walls shall be anchored with a minimum Grade A 307,  3/8 inch (9.5 mm) diameter anchor bolt embedded a minimum of 7 inches (178 mm) and placed at maximum spacing of 24 inches (609 mm) on center for Seismic Design Category D1 and a maximum spacing of 16 inches (406 mm) on center for Seismic Design Category D2. The minimum edge distance from the edge of concrete to edge of anchor bolt shall be 2.5 inches (63.5 mm)."

That means you can't meet the anchor bolt minimum edge distance requirement of 2.5" with a 4" thick concrete wall.

"In Seismic Design Categories D1 and D2, the minimum vertical and horizontal reinforcement shall be one No. 5 rebar at a maximum spacing of 18 inches (457 mm) on center and the minimum concrete compressive strength shall be 3,000 psi (20.5 MPa)."

Even if 4" walls were allowed, they would be so congested with rebar and ties to make it near impossible to pour and place the concrete without voids.

jacktca, with the architect being unwilling to change the design to a 6" wall, did you try and approach the owners and explain to them that if they were to simply bump out the footer by 2", then for the same price they could have a 6" wall rather than a 4" wall? Explain that in a seismic area, a 6" wall would be structurally much better for them and the house. I would have to think if the rebar schedule was kept the same and the walls were merely 2" thicker, it would have been an ideal situation.

Granted you don't want to upset and architect, but if the owners of the house are your client and you are looking out for their best interest, why not stress to them the importance of using the local manufacture? Talk with the folks at Build Block there, I would think that they would agree that the 6" would be better and the same cost.

renangle I thought we went over this in an earlier post.   I am the owner.   I'm building the place with cash, no loan.   That's why I'm scrutinizing all of these costs.  When you build on loan using somebody else's money you don't care about silly little expenses like spending $1200 to transport styrofoam from one side of the country to the other.   When it's somebody's money, your hard earned saved up money, then you care about those kinds of things.

I'll take a look at those requirements for a 5.5" thick wall somebody posted.   I'm resisting using a 6" core block because the place is 800 sq. ft.  That's the max the county allows a guest house to be.   If I want to build two houses on the 2.5 acre lot, one of them will eventually need to be turned into a "guest house".    Every 2" of thickness added to a wall takes away that much from the interior of an already small house.