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ICFHybrid
 Veteran Member
 Posts:3039
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| 23 May 2011 11:33 PM |
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First, let me say I agree with previous posters, dig up the backfill and throw that clay as far away from the house as you can get it. Repair any damaged areas of peel-n-stick, add platon, install 4" draintile, and backfill with clean wash rock to within a foot of finished grade. A large number of builders have traipsed by my site and every single one has said the same thing. The biggest drainage mistake they see made repeatedly is not having a gravel or drain rock screen against the foundation. |
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cmkavala
 Veteran Member
 Posts:4327

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| 24 May 2011 05:30 AM |
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Posted By BrianPK on 22 May 2011 10:02 PM Finish Grade isn't done and there is gravel under the slab & footer. Building was not washed b4 peel & stick, although some kind of "primer" was used. I would have demanded other methods had I felt that there would be a problem. They backfilled with the red clay, not gravel. At this point I am into damage control. Do you think there is any salvation short of digging the thing up all the way to the footing. I don't think the contractor is going to jump at fixing this thing. He is backpedaling. I need to figure out what to do. Otherwise the job is good. If everyone reads the original poster's comments he is telling us many potential problems" 1. Finish grade not done! maybe sloped towards foundation? 2. Backfilled with red clay, a definite mistake, gravel would have been much better. Having built in NW PA, gray clay is common and used for backfill often without any problems, it would not be my first choice, gravel is better. I have only built one below grade basement in Florida, waterproofed block, ran exterior footer drain in gravel to low point on building site, backfilled with pea gravel -- never a problem. 3. Previous stated "no gutters/ downspouts" ,,,,,,,,,, this can aggravate the leak problem too. with the job not done yet, it is premature to start pointing fingers at a problem If your contract did not specify gravel backfill , you are not in a position to demand anything, you should expect a leak proof basement and if the contractor being familiar with what is common to the region can accomplish with clay backfill, then there should not be an issue I trust you got references on the contractor before signing, you also said "otherwise the job was good", if he is reputable then he is going to want to make you happy, if you are resonable. Now is the time to address the concern in writing to him and get the "what if's ?" in the open |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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BrianPK
 New Member
 Posts:24
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| 24 May 2011 07:48 AM |
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We are working on the issue and the contractor is working to resolve the problem. I got gutters installed on saturday so that portion of the issue is gone. We are waiting for utilities to be run underground before we finish the grade. I will keep this thread updated as we progress.
Ultimately I would do what I did on my first ICF build. Platon, gravel backfill. I may end up with that, time will tell. It is a problem but not unsolveable. |
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Alton
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2164
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| 24 May 2011 08:56 AM |
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Do you plan to route the utilities through the basement wall below grade? If so, then this can lead to more leaks if not properly done. When given a choice, I prefer to route utilities up through the concrete floor. Easier to seal especially when the slab is on gravel that can drain. |
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Residential Designer & Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period . 334 826-3979 |
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jpj
 New Member
 Posts:34
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| 24 May 2011 03:42 PM |
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Alton, You mentioned that you put tamped clean gravel UNDER the footings and slab. Under circumstances where the basement is not a walkout, how do you tamp the gravel to a compaction that you are comfortable with putting your foundation on (does a vibrating plate do the job well enough)? Thanks. |
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Alton
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2164
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| 24 May 2011 05:56 PM |
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First of all I am in the Southeast where we do walkout basements. I can remember doing only one full basement that was not a walkout. It flooded many years later. We did not know what caused the flooding until we dug out the old line and found that it was crushed just enough that it could not handle a heavy rain. The easiest way to end up with a crushed line is to allow the backhoe to tamp the dirt in the trench by running the wheels in the trench. Since the walls were solid concrete, only the carpet and pad had to be replaced. So that taught me not to rely on only one line to grade. Walkouts as opposed to non-walkouts usually lend themselves to having two lines to grade.
A vibrating plate type of tamper that you can rent will do a great job of compacting the gravel provided the lifts do not exceed 6 inches and the gravel is like clean #57 or #67. Some code officials that have not seen gravel under a footer may not want to sign off on it. Basically, we use the same type of gravel that goes with septic dispersal lines. Do understand that the gravel under the footer and later under the slab was tamped. This tamped area also included the overcut area up to the banks. Confined gravel will more likely stay tamped as opposed to un-confined gravel. |
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Residential Designer & Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period . 334 826-3979 |
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ICFHybrid
 Veteran Member
 Posts:3039
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| 24 May 2011 09:02 PM |
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What are we calling "clean gravel"? I think of that as washed pea and up. Washed gravel or drain rock is self-compacting as long as it is constrained on 4 sides. |
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Alton
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2164
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| 25 May 2011 12:04 AM |
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What we call "clean" gravel is gravel that has a very narrow size range and is free of dust. The range might be 3/4" to 1 1/2". No fines or dust. This type of gravel will let water flow through it if the undisturbed earth is sloped to grade. Although the clean gravel will self compact somewhat we still tamp it to compact it more so since the footer will be resting on it. We also use this type of gravel for the backfill that is over the foundation drains. |
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Residential Designer & Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period . 334 826-3979 |
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jonr
 Senior Member
 Posts:5341
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| 25 May 2011 07:52 AM |
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All of this reinforces my belief in fully exposed, above grade basements with shallow frost protected foundations.
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Bruce
 Basic Member
 Posts:142
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| 25 May 2011 08:59 AM |
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Alton, Have you use Fastfoot for footings on top of the gravel? I wonder if it is more likely to puncture in such a situation. Or, does the footing have to be right on top of the gravel without anything inbetween for it to work right? Our code here says footings on undisturbed soil. However, I see plenty of commercial structures built on compacted gravel bases. Guess it would be up to the local building department. It does sound like it makes a lot of sense from a water management perspective. Thanks, Bruce Walton |
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cmkavala
 Veteran Member
 Posts:4327

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| 25 May 2011 09:06 AM |
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most codes read "undisturbed or compacted" |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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Alton
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2164
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| 25 May 2011 09:11 AM |
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I have not used Fastfoot but have seen it used. Very tough stuff. I think you will find that compacted, fractured gravel will not tear the membrane under the footer or slab. I have used vinyl under wet footers. Always check with the local code official before trying anything different. Some code officials will not get out of their comfort zone. But I see no reason not to use gravel and Fastfoot together. |
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Residential Designer & Construction Technology Consultant -- E-mail: Alton at Auburn dot Edu Use email format with @ and period . 334 826-3979 |
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Bruce
 Basic Member
 Posts:142
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| 25 May 2011 10:37 AM |
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Cmkavala, Guess I should have read our code before posting. Ours reads, "Footings shall be supported on undisturbed natural soils or engineered fill." Therefore, you were absolutely correct. However, I couldn't find the definition of "engineered fill". Does compacted gravel meet the term or is this something you have to have an engineer come out and define and test? Guess i should just ask the building department, but you all have experience that will make my conversations with the building department more educated when I get to that point. Thank you, Bruce Walton
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cmkavala
 Veteran Member
 Posts:4327

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| 25 May 2011 11:42 AM |
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Bruce;
If there are no known or suspected sub surface problems with the site, the proper way to do it is:
1. fill in with 12" - 18" lifts( layered) 2. Compact with vibrating compactor 3. Test compaction with each lift ( a soils testing lab will come out and test 3 randomly picked areas of fill) soild ensity in our are needs to be 95% or greater 4. if test is favorable then proceed to next lift
We have successfully filled 8 feet of buildable area in compacted lifts and never had settling problems |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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BrianPK
 New Member
 Posts:24
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| 28 May 2011 11:50 AM |
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We had 2" of rain. With the gutters installed and the downspouts directed away from the house, one corner daylighted for foundation drainage we still have dampness creeping in. I believe the true solution is to dig out the three walls at the front & sides of the house, install dimpled membrane, backfill with clean stone. I do not believe that there is any other solution that will provide 100% security. What is the consensis on my solution. |
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cmkavala
 Veteran Member
 Posts:4327

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| 28 May 2011 12:15 PM |
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Posted By BrianPK on 28 May 2011 11:50 AM We had 2" of rain. With the gutters installed and the downspouts directed away from the house, one corner daylighted for foundation drainage we still have dampness creeping in. I believe the true solution is to dig out the three walls at the front & sides of the house, install dimpled membrane, backfill with clean stone. I do not believe that there is any other solution that will provide 100% security.
What is the consensis on my solution. the finish grading is not done? |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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eric monkman
 Basic Member
 Posts:262

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| 29 May 2011 10:59 AM |
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Posted By BrianPK on 28 May 2011 11:50 AM We had 2" of rain. With the gutters installed and the downspouts directed away from the house, one corner daylighted for foundation drainage we still have dampness creeping in. I believe the true solution is to dig out the three walls at the front & sides of the house, install dimpled membrane, backfill with clean stone. I do not believe that there is any other solution that will provide 100% security.
What is the consensis on my solution. Your solution is the best method. imho When you say dampness creeping in.....it is not the cold glass of beer effect is it ? High humidity condensing on cold surface :-) |
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cmkavala
 Veteran Member
 Posts:4327

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| 29 May 2011 01:06 PM |
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Eric;
my thinking too, The original post was about water in the basement, now is diminished to dampness after 2" of rain? Starting to sound a little petty. |
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| Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br /> |
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smartwall
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1209

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| 31 May 2011 08:42 AM |
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Bottom line is the basement should not have water in it. I've seen this happen a couple of times. The only long term solution is to dig and install dimpled over the peel and stick. I don't know why people use peel and stick instead of dimpled. The stuff can be installed right after you're done filling the forms so there is no wasted time on the job. It's about as foolproof a product as you will find. It installs faster than anything else and it cost less than the peely stuff |
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smartwall
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1209

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| 31 May 2011 08:44 AM |
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Posted By smartwall on 31 May 2011 08:42 AM Bottom line is the basement should not have water in it. I've seen this happen a couple of times. The only long term solution is to dig and install dimpled over the peel and stick. I don't know why people use peel and stick instead of dimpled. The stuff can be installed right after you're done filling the forms so there is no wasted time on the job. It's about as foolproof a product as you will find. It installs faster than anything else and it cost less than the peel and stick stuff |
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