Bruce-

not joining one side or the other, as I know very little about strengths of various brands...but an honest question.  This question is based on the assumption your block costs more then "standard" block...

The owner pays for the cost of the block and labor.  I assume your block costs more then a typical eps block, not sure how labor compares.  It costs more because it is supposedly much stronger, in form state, then others.  However that goes away once the concrete is cured.  So at the end of the day, you have a stronger form, yet more expensive (again, assuming).  From my view, as an arch that would spec the product, it appears the stronger forms benefit the installer, not the owner.  Why should the owner care if you have a stronger form reducing YOUR chances of onsite blowouts and bowed walls?  From the owners perspective, on site mistakes should be fixed by the contractor, which would also be the stand I make.  Thus, why should they pay the higher price for your block vs a "standard" block, if, at the end of the day, they are getting an ICF structure?

Izerarc, you have hit the nail on the head. The customer/owner buys a completed wall system. The market sets the price. That means that the sum of the materials, labor and profit all have to be roughly the same. So the installer has to say to himself: I can pay 15% more for the materials, but save 30% of my labor costs, get the job completed faster, minimize aggravation and the possibilities of complications, and that will increase my profit. Is it worth it? The smart guy will take that deal every time.

The architect's perspective should be: What product can I spec that will result in a happy customer? If the architect specs a product that installs quickly, smoothly and with no problems, everyone says, wow, that's pretty slick stuff that architect speced. Conversely, if he specs something that gives the owner heartburn because it gives the builder heartburn, because it delayed the job, the reflection is on the architect for specing it in the first place... Just my opinion.

Actually Bruce I would like to see the test data. I keep hearing about the strength of the bloc,k povide a link o the test data or tells us where of the Polycrete site I can find it. Making a claim is easy lets see the proof.

Izerarc, I would like to jump in and make the point from the builder / owner Veiw. You are correct that at the end of the day you will have a better building than any other type of construction as long as it is a good fit for ICF. Now when one of my clients build, 99% of the time they are on a time schedule and if they can not keep to this they will be fined.So a good architect is going to look out for his GC and so am I this keeps us employed. Now you know that every ICF building that is constructed has many eyes on it. Is it not better to see a perfect job rather than one that is being corrected, causing yet another black eye for your industry? I like to keep my client in the best light as I can so this is why I choose this form.Plus It is far more cost effective.

Contact me offline with email addresses and I will send test data.

Bruce,

Where are the Polycrete blocks produced and do you have any installers in the Southeast USA?

Big Block is currently manufactured in Quebec and mid-Atlantic US plant will be up and running in 2012. We have an installer in the Pensacola area who travels.

Quaker,You Obviously do not know the form and have never seen it.

Posted By Lilly of this valley on 10 Jun 2011 10:44 AM
Izerarc, I would like to jump in and make the point from the builder / owner Veiw. You are correct that at the end of the day you will have a better building than any other type of construction as long as it is a good fit for ICF. Now when one of my clients build, 99% of the time they are on a time schedule and if they can not keep to this they will be fined.So a good architect is going to look out for his GC and so am I this keeps us employed. Now you know that every ICF building that is constructed has many eyes on it. Is it not better to see a perfect job rather than one that is being corrected, causing yet another black eye for your industry? I like to keep my client in the best light as I can so this is why I choose this form.Plus It is far more cost effective.

obviously the goal is a perfect project, which is never the case no matter how hard everyone tries.  THe question sort of came off as "make the contactor use whatever regardless" which really wasnt my intension.  It really came down to a cost question.  If many other forms have great success, why should a more expensive one be used?  However its stated after labor savings, its the same.  That is where competative bidding comes into play.  My goal is happy clients, but also happy contractors.  Its a fine line to walk some days, as you want to do whats best for the client, and sometimes that means pissing off the contractor.
But, by all means, if you have a "better" system for the contractor and can bid low, its a win across the board.  I rarely write closed specs and usually allow approved equals.  its the contractor's bidding the job to come to me with their preferred block as requested equal.  Whichever block you use, I still expect the same result.

Izerarc, you are the voice of reason amid chaos. The Big Block makes the contractor happy because the job gets done faster and with fewer complications. And that translates to higher profits and repeat business.

Jeepster,
Im sorry your thread got hijacked, I hope you have successfull second level pour. Nothing worse than being told you shoulda bought a ford when you had bad luck with your chevy service dept.

Lilly, I have had my hands on the Big Block yet I still remain unimpressed. Probably more so with Brucie's attitude in general than with the actual block. I just don't care for the extra steps it takes to get similar results as other blocks that are much more user friendly. About 75% of our work is commercial and the residential we do usually has many corners, Tee walls, and many times radius walls. If I was going to build a huge square building with no openings then the polycrete block may start to look like it might be somewhat faster once started, but then the old polysteel or arxxsteel as it is called now goes up fast and is very strong. Another issue we have run accross is the horizontal rebar spacing. Most of the time it is specified 16" o.c. and can be a pain to get the architect and the engineer to change it. It seems to me like another block company trying to get the installer to lower their price to make the high price block sell. By the way, since we have not done a polysteel project in a few years my guys are very happy to not have to deal with metal ties. While strong, they are a pain in the neck. Just my opinion. People should see it for themselves.

Posted By peterswet on 10 Jun 2011 07:42 PM
Jeepster,
Im sorry your thread got hijacked, I hope you have successfull second level pour. Nothing worse than being told you shoulda bought a ford when you had bad luck with your chevy service dept.

  My apologies also Jeepster, you are handling your situation with class !

  Big Bruce..any test data for  your Big Block Corners ?

  No ?

  I'm not surprised.

Sean,

I am sorry to hear about your experience with  "The Clicking Block" so far.  Could you pm me the name of your rep, so I can look into it for you?  Also, I will be having a fire station and two houses going up in Indiana in the next week or two.  If you would like, we can discuss a job site visit.  I look forward to your reply.
DWA

P.S.  Sorry your thread got royally hijacked by petty arguments.  I hope you are getting what you want in spite of it.

Pour number two went infinitely better. There was a lot of work to do before the second pour became possible. The basement floor slab, ledger boards, floor system tied up a few weeks. Then I got to stacking the next level of blocks. I decided to take the advise of many on the forum and start the next level square and true.

For a quick pick-me-up on the details, the first floor pour left me with some walls that were bowed in and out of plumb about a 1/2" to 5/8." So, since this was a two level ICF house, I had to decide to either cut the nubs off (so the forms wouldn't lock to the lower crooked forms)and re-square; or start the next level crooked and correct it by the time I reached the top plate; or start the second level crooked and carry that bow all the way to the top.

Like I said, I picked option one. The basement forms are 8" and the first floor forms are 6". Normally, the 6" block would align with the outside of the wall with the foam getting full engagement into the basement forms, while the inside foam would contact (rest) on about 1/2" of the inner part of the 8" form.

Since I was cutting the nubs off to prevent having to conform to the crooked walls, I did the following:
1. run my floor decking over the top of the basement inner foam to establish a place for the inner 6" foam to rest on. The edges of the decking wrapped in tar paper to prevent concrete from contacting the edges.
2. snap lines establishing the new true and square dimensions on the floor deck
3. I attached 6" tall by 48" long strips of OSB to the 1-1/2" edge of the same size 2x4s. These "L" shaped boards went around the perimeter, along the caulk line to give the bottom course alignment and to prevent form movement
4. Cut the nubs off of the inside edge of my first course of forms and placed them around the perimeter, screwing them to my "L" base boards
5. Then I placed my window bucks and put my braces up.
6. I leveled the forms at this point, because the OUTSIDE connection between the basement forms and the first floor forms did not exist. By design, (since I was resting the inside on the floor deck), there was a gap of about 1/2" between the basement and first floor forms.
7. On a walking plank with latter jacks, I went around the 230 feet of perimeter and cut (using saw guides) a 1-1/2 gap between the basement and the first floor forms.
8. Then I ripped a PT 2x4 in half and stuffed it in the 1-1/2" gap that I made.
9. Lastly I covered this seam with OSB all the way around.

It seems overkill (and it probably was), but I was concerned about not having a solid connection between the first floor forms and the basement forms on the outside of the wall. I was considering just filling this with spray foam, but that stuff is so squishy, that it wouldn't actually support anything, it would just hold back concrete. Then I thought about going around and simply squishing some mortar between the two levels, but only in the area where the plastic webs are located. I think this would have been a fine option, except the plastic webs don't line up between 8" forms and the 6" forms (at least where an outside corner is concerned). I opted on placing the 2x2 gusset all the way around because I was confident that pressure would travel through the first floor's plastic webs, through the wood-gusset, to the basement form's plastic webs.

Basically all of the previous steps, aside from placing window bucks and braces, was all time and material lost to correct for a stupid basement screw-up. I'm sure I lost a week in that process. No big deal now. Move on and chalk it off to a learning experience.

Back to the pour yesterday. Everything worked well and as expected. I had eight guys on hand, including myself. Two guys on window sills (21 windows and 3 doors), two guys checking level and string lines the whole time (this was not necessary, but I was paranoid), one guy working the vibrator with me (mainly below the windows and on the last lift, we got the top of the block all the way around and the top of the windows/doors real well), and two floaters that would keep extension cords clear, bang on walls, fetch stuff. Everyone stayed busy the whole pour. We placed 32 yards in three lifts. The trucks carried 9,9,9, and 7. I had a couple extra yards in the last truck. It took 2 hours to place the concrete and I had the trucks come 30 minutes apart. The mix had chilled water and retarder, 6-bag (4000psi) chip mix at a 5.5 slump. I machined out a rebar vibrator which worked real well to get the first lift to flow into the window sills. On the second and third lift, it helped keep the rebar congestion clear, but I don't think it really consolidated the concrete much beyond the rebar itself. We had a 1" wacker vibrator on hand and I could visually see the area of influence was at least 2'.

I'd like to thank the many of you that had offered suggestions (and even sympathy). This forum is a great resource for anyone wanting to get involved in ICF construction.

The only thing that scared me a bit is around the end of the first lift, it started to rain and the sky was looking real dark. The pumper said he didn't mind pumping in the rain, but if there's any lightning, we have to stop. Luckily, no lighting and the rain didn't amount to hardly anything. It was over in 5-10 minutes.

I'm glad thing worked out for you. I noticed you didn't mention having the rep over for the second pour. Its too bad he led you down the wrong path on the first go around but it sounds like you recovered nicely. Congrats!! Good luck with the rest of the build.