Maybe I'm brain struck today and can't understand their wanting spec's for ICF systems. My engineer says it's a stupid requirement. Rebar spec's are in the plans and 8" concrete is also. Anyone like to comment?

Many building departments want to be sure that the ICF has the proper fire ratings and that it meets minimum requirements for building codes -- particularly if they're not too familiar with ICF construction. Your supplier can get all of that for you -- it's pretty standard.

Thanks for the reply. However, I'm aware of the need to cover the interior foam for the fire code as foam does melt and add smoke. The exterior will be covered with real stone so that's covered.

FYI, I'm a retired GC and have not used ICF's before. I'm going to hire an ICF installer. But I still can't understand the BD wanting specs. What the hell, as long as the concrete and rebar are in place why the requirement? I think they are not in the advanced learning classes and up to speed with the product.

Retired 1 suggest you look at the ICF coatings we offer for super fire resistance on both interior and exterior wall. See at www.TheGreenBuildingProducstsStore.com PlasterMax is the first fire rated coating for ICF and our StuccoMax is an excellent exterior coating that is not only fire resistant but also easy to install. Good luck on your project.

I agree that it is important to consider the total wall cost - labor and materials for siding or exterior coating, wall and interior covering. SCIPs (concrete/foam/concrete) do well with this in mind.

Posted By jonr on 13 Jun 2011 05:06 PM
I agree that it is important to consider the total wall cost - labor and materials for siding or exterior coating, wall and interior covering. SCIPs (concrete/foam/concrete) do well with this in mind.

Thank you very much, but I will be having 5/8" std drywall installed over the interior ICF's and 5/8" fire-rated drywall for the garage walls & ceiling. Don't see why I would spend extra $$$ for a coating.

OK folks.
I just talked with the BD plan check engineer. He said I must submit MFG Date showing exactly the system we will be using. He did say that grid and/or waffle systems are not allowed and that the plans must show a section stating 8" or 10" thick concrete. The section showing 8" concrete is already shown on my plans. He also wants to know the type of foam and the R value in lieu of interior wall framing and insulation.

That's pretty typical. Just call your supplier and he will be able to give you all the info that you need.

The building department is looking for the ICC-ESR report for your chosen ICF system. It is a standard requirement of the building department to ensure their testing is up to date and their approval is current and valid.

Ask your ICF supplier for a copy, or at the very least the ICC number and forward that information to the building department.

If their ICC is expired, the manufacturer can validate on a job by job basis for the sum of $ 600 odd dollars per job that their product is compliant and nothing has changed in their product since last approval.

If they do not have an ICC number then there is a good chance the building department is going to reject it as an acceptable building material.

The ICC covers everything as a blanket, fire test, smoke test, fastener pull out, etc, etc.

All major ICF companies have ICC numbers, it is the only way their products can be used in residential construction, not all BD check for this, but Florida and California do.

Not trying to be a jerk here,

but if I bought 3/4"x 4'x8' plywood and drilled holes 16" oc H &V and bought 8" steel snap ties and rented the associated clamps what could they say? STOP WORK ORDER? What does the BD care how I contain the concrete and rebar until the next day?

Maybe old age is creeping up on me. I'm a little a upset with this BD plan checker requiring me to jump through hoops all the time to issue a permit.

Don't get me wrong, I have gotten along with the field inspectors on my jobs in the past because I don't let the subs cut corners but this plan checker is busting my you know what and I don't like it.

It's not about containing the concrete. It's about the stuff that will be inside your walls for the next 100 years.

Your not being a jerk, I had the same belief as you, my attitude was picture the guys setting forms, pour the concrete, difference is I leave my forms.

That was the problem, certain foams cannot be used, certain plastics couldn't be used, etc.

Any reputable ICF manufacturer has an ICC number, you cannot produce a product that does not comply with IBC/UBC that does not require ICC reports.

Check out many products when you go to the hardware store, you will see the ICC-ESR number labelled on them, your ICF may even have it embedded in the foam. During inspection if the inspector says 'Is that product acceptable' you can show him the ICC number and unless your doing something unusual with it he will accept it and move on.

I forgot to mention, there are so many other things the BD may be looking for and each has their own significance. There is the Miami/Dade approval, Los Angeles County approval, Wisconsin approval. All these are different then the ICC, but the ICC will address them if they have them.

ICC is usually the last one anyone gets, it takes years and lots of $$$$$$$$$$ to get it. So next time anyone complains about the cost of ICF and the fact it's styrofoam and plastic, let them know someone spent millions upon millions of bucks, and many years getting the product to market with R&D, molds, approvals, etc.

You're right, I just had the same situation a month ago and asked if I could pour between two sheets of plywood and was told I could ,but I needed the info for the icf regardless.

With regards to Florida approval for ICF's i can offer the following:

Back in 1995 when a few brands became available in south florida, i went before the Broward and Dade county board of rules and appeals and they included ICF's (solid or waffle core) cast in place, tilt up and pre-cast walls, as having met the impact test requirements. This section is still in the code toady and covers all counties that have adopted the high velocity wind zone standards (ie Miami Dade, the keys, most south Florida counties and some Caribbean islands).


R4403.16.4 Construction assemblies deemed to comply with R4403.16 (Requirement for impact testing).

1. Exterior concrete masonry walls of minimum nominal 8 inch (203 mm) thickness, constructed in accordance with Section R4407 of this code.

2. Exterior frame walls or gable ends constructed in accordance with Section R4408 and Section R4409 of this code, sheathed with a minimum 19/32-inch (15 mm) CD exposure-1 plywood and clad with wire lath and stucco installed in accordance with Section R4411 of this code.

3. Exterior frame walls and roofs constructed in accordance with Section R4408 of this code sheathed with a minimum 24-gauge rib deck type material and clad with an approved wall finish.

4. Exterior reinforced concrete elements constructed of solid normal weight concrete (no voids), designed in accordance with Section R4405 of this code and having a minimum 2 inches (51 mm) thickness.

5. Roof systems constructed in accordance with Section R4408 or Section R4409 of this code, sheathed with a minimum 19/32-inch (15 mm) CD exposure 1 plywood or minimum nominal 1-inch (25 mm) wood decking and surfaced with an approved roof system installed in accordance with Section R4402 of this code.

All other counties, per section R4405 of the current code require that icf structures be designed by a licensed structural engineer accoridng to ACI 318.

Approval for ICF's in Florida is actually not needed, but many ICF companies have obtained it anyway, as it is just easier to present the Notice of Approval (NOA) than to argue with building department.

btw

One of the oldest ICF structures in Florida is a 5 story condo on the ocean in Daytona Beach built in 1972, covered with conventional masonry stucco and wire mesh. One of the installers, now a 80+ year old church elder, who helped build this condo then, has helped build an ICF church around 2003 and they are now adding an ICF addition.

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