http://lavannicfhangers.ca/index.html anyone heard of these or used them by chance? Pricing? They look fairly easy and straight forward. It would allow me to get rid of the expensive Simpsons ICFLV and microlam.

No experience with that, but it looks similar to the McMillan joist hanger described in the Logix ICF manual.

Or the RP Watkins hanger shown here: http://www.watkinshanger.com/page0/page0.html

Another similar option is ICF Connect hangers here: http://www.icfconnect.com/joist.htm

I was initially going to go with something like this, but later changed from a 6" to 8" ICF basement wall with taper top form, then transitioned to a thinner ICF wall above. This allowed me to install a plate around the inside top edge of the basement wall and I then used top chord hung open web floor trusses hung from this plate. Very solid connection and no expensive hangers needed.

How about the extra cost of the 8" vs 6" concrete compared to the hangers that would be required? How did this pan out, cost wise?

Yeah, the added concrete cost going from 6" to 8" concrete walls pretty much wiped out the cost savings of avoiding the metal hangers, but I think I ended up with a better structure. I have a lot of backfill on one long wall and I think going with the 8" thick wall, at least on that side, was needed anyway.

Here are some photos showing the plate which I anchored with 1/2" x 8" anchor bolts every 4' and I also put down a double 3/8" bead of F26 construction adhesive for good measure. 

Note that the little pieces of 1/2" PVC pipe in the bottom picture were used for spacers during the forming / pouring phase and serve no purpose now.  This was partly needed to adjust my wall height to get a full 8' finished ceiling in the basement.  Also, the walls are 9'9" tall and I purchased my #5 rebar cut to 10' lengths, hence the short rebar stubs sticking out of the top of the wall.  I am using #4 verticals for the upper wall.

My objection to this type of hanger is that 1/2 of the insulation of the ICF wall has to be removed.

Alton, which hanger are you referring to? The one like I have shown above?

I considered the loss of insulation value at this point, but there has to be a balance between strength and insulation.

What I have opted to do is come back after the trusses and floor have been set (already done), and cut 1/2" thick foil faced rigid polyiso insulation to fit between trusses and go from the bottom of the sub-floor to the bottom of the trusses, and glue/nail this in place. In my case, the 4x2 trusses are 18" deep and set 24" on center. This leaves 20.5" between each truss. I'll then cut the rigid insulation on my table saw to these dimensions and fit between the trusses. This will cover the exposed top plate and concrete at the top of the wall, thereby minimizing heat transfer through this surface.

This leaves a direct wood-to-wood connection between truss top chords and the concrete wall, but in reality, you have to have some type of rigid connection at this point.

The metal truss hangers which is the topic of this thread, will obviously provide a thermally conductive path from the concrete wall to the wood flooring system. Whether or not this is worse or better from a heat loss/gain standpoint compared to what I have done is difficult to calculate.

the hanger I mentioned installs by cutting slits into the foam and you slide it in. You do not remove the foam.

Izerarc,

Assuming that you are referring to the clip shown in the link, then the written instructions and the video both show that a very small piece of foam has to be removed so that concrete can fill the void.  There may be another way of installing it not shown.

Posted By arkie6 on 06 Jan 2012 10:45 AM
Alton, which hanger are you referring to? The one like I have shown above?

Arkie6,

I was referring to the hanger referenced by Izerarc.  I was slow on my posting, so that left my posting in doubt as to which hanger.

ahh, you are referring to that small 2-1/2" piece that needs removed. I thought you were meaning the entire section of foam the size of the hanger. Suppose you could always place a small piece of sill seal in the hanger first if you are after a thermal break I guess. I would doubt the thermal transmission between the thin metal and wood joist would be too concerning. Just my opinion.
The thing I do like about them is they look pretty easy and quick to install. Faster then the ICF connect as you do not have the band to screw to the joist first. I would assume they would be slightly cheaper too, but still waiting on pricing.
One question I do have with floor systems like this (and others that use hangers) is how do you handle the gyp per code over the foam if the ceiling is left exposed (unfinished basement)? Do you have to cut the gyp around all of the joists?

The one advantage of the Simpson icf hanger is the ability to relevel the floor system if needed. The J bracket can be moved up or down if for some reason you walls settled on installation of the concrete

The disadvantages these have to the Simpson is; they cost more, get in the way of bracing, must know/do layout and they are inflexible in height adjustment.

The Simpson's are best used with a mid bearing floor truss and a double ledger so that the bottom cord is flush with the double ledger. The truss bearing is on top of the double ledger. However this is not an engineered installation. Strange that Simpson would not engineer that.

it is interesting you claim they cost more. Do you even know the cost? The Simpson has its advantage with flexibility, however the brackets are expensive. Plus you have to add the ledger board (typically lvl around here), plus the hangers for the joists as well. Not only does this involve more material cost, but it also involves additional labor. Obviously if you are doing a ledger and not using hangers, that saves some cost and time. But then you have the ledger to deal with in your basement ceiling space (which may or may not be a big deal to the client). It is correct that the layout must be known, but I am of the opinion that has to be figured out on the plans anyway. Plus it is needed (at least around here) for plan approval for floor engineering. The brackets are placed anywhere from 16"-24". I don't see how you can not adjust the brace to either side given those spacings. Obviously if you want a whaler and it falls right at the bracket height, that is an issue. It is possible they can settle some in the pour, but you can prevent that by installing some 2x4 supports to the underside of the horizontal 2x4. I am not standing up for the bracket, but rather questioning your claims.

I do know the cost and have used the hangers that are used one per joist/truss. They cost less per set, but many more sets are usually needed. I have never had a job that required a LVL as a ledger used with the Simpson system, I don't know why you would, Simpson makes not distinction between a LVL and dimensional spf lumber, only between steel and wood. Then if you have to install one 2x4, cut to length, under each of the individual type hangers, can't do a horizontal because of the bracing strong-backs, that takes time and money and leave no flexibility for ceiling height, which may vary, especially if I am not pouring the basement floor. Then it is a different hanger for each type of floor, whereas with the Simpson, I only need the one. The individual type hangers cost more, overall.

Layout should be done by the framing contractor, not the ICF contractor, and the bracing is put on after 5-7 feet, which is I hope below the ceiling height.

sorry, bkvanbek is me.

All I can say is make sure you know your joist layout precisely. Make sure there are no plumbing interferences. There's no adjustment in those things once the wall is poured.

Depending on the block you are using, I wouldn't worry about settling. If your footings are level and don't deviate more than 1/4", a modern block won't compress. I think this was a major issue back when the webs didn't extend fully from the top to the bottom of the form.

Regarding LVL, if you are using a top bearing truss, many times the truss manufacture will specify a 3.5" bearing. But, ask them if they could design it with a 3" bearing. Most likely they can. Worse case scenario, they will do a LVL plus dim lumber, which would be 3.25".

There's no reason I can think of that would require the bottom cord of a truss to extend flush with the basement wall, so a ledger is really no big deal. Drywall screws don't need to be placed in the ceiling that close to the wall intersection.

I like the simpson hanger. They do, however, say you don't need to drill pilot holes with their self tapping screws, but I drilled them anyway. You'll wear your self out ( and your impact driver) if you don't pre-drill, imo.

Anyone use just a good ol 2x12 mounted with anchor bolts to the forms prior to the pour? (I joist hangers installed on the ledger prior to mounting).

Posted By lzerarc on 18 Mar 2012 10:56 AM
Anyone use just a good ol 2x12 mounted with anchor bolts to the forms prior to the pour? (I joist hangers installed on the ledger prior to mounting).

Yes, but I avoid it. The 2x12 gets in the way of the bracing, and the eps needs to be removed so that concrete contacts the 2x. Or cut the foam, use scrap plywood to hold anchor bolts, then post pour remove plywood. Both are less desirable most of the time. Simpson ICFVL is usually the best option.

what about if using vertical forms?.....