If you're building an energy efficient commercial project, the building owner can earn up to $1.80 in Federal Income Tax deductions -- $.60 for the building envelope alone. We can show you how, and I don't even care which ICF you're using. If it's a government building the designer or contractor can qualify for the tax break.

Where is this Bruce? I ask since years ago I was in California and they had tax breaks for windows, insulation, appliances, but nothing available for ICF. I am glad to see ICF is getting some recognition with your post

The residential tax deduction only covers homes completed throught 12/31/2011. Information for homes is found here http://energytaxincentives.org/builders/new_homes.php

The Commercial incentives were extended through the end of 2013, and there are bills in the House and Senate that seek to extend it through 2015 (Senate) and 2019 (House). The Senate bill also seeks to increase the deduction to $1 per sqft and there's discussion about converting it from a "Tax Deduction" to a "Tax Credit". That would be a big deal.

ICF has only one benefit.   After it's built the place is more comfortable and energy efficient.    If you are going to do ICF's for tax benefits you're nuts.    The problem with ICF's is the industry consists of tiny companies that compete tooth and nail.   Every manufacturer has their little niche system that is incompatible with everyone else's.   The result is the customer gets locked into a particular system.   The alternative to ICF's, wood frame, is like all over the place and they adhere to open standards.   For example I go to Lowe's and pick up a 2x4 for $2.   I go to Home Depot and pick up a 2x4 for $2.   Same 2x4.    With ICF's you can't do that.   All ICF parts and materials are esoteric.  The nearest place that stocks what you need might be a few states away.   Also you can't go to Lowe's or Home Depot for anything.   Everything has to come from far away and shipping is half the cost.   Do-It-Yourself with ICF is a myth.   The pour has to be done in a single day due to cold joints and the economics of concrete.    Barrel trucks full of concrete cost as much as the concrete material itself.    You have 45 minutes to unload a huge load of concrete from a barrel truck.   You need special braces to make the ICF's plumb.    You need to hire a crew.    The usual situation is the guy who rents the braces has a crew.   So much for do-it-yourself. 

Thanks for sharing your insight, Jack. You should also mention that in addition to the benefits you cite are an ICF building's resistance to heavy winds like those from hurricanes and tornadoes. Concrete buildings are also less likely to burn down than wood -- although the insulation can be damaged by fire. We do not encourage ICF as a DIY project.

Currently that tax benefit is limited to $180,000 per 100,000 square feet of floor space through 2013, but there are bills under consideration by the House and Senate that will both extend the life of the program, and increase the benefit to $300,000 per 100,000 sqft. Watch our blog (www,polycreteusa,blogspot.com) for more details soon.

Bruce I don't want to highjack your thread, actually I do, so here it goes.

Jack, I appreciate your observations about our industry, but you are not looking at the grand scheme of things. I would not take a BMW to a Chev. dealership. comparing a 2x4 to an ICF wall is not a fair comparison, the only similarity is they are walls. An ICF wall gets concrete, concrete waits for no one and forgives no one. Why someone thinks they can build and pour a concrete wall is beyond me, because I know that same person would never attempt to pour their slab, and a slab is a lot easier!!

I see most of your rant is just that, a rant. You have a valid point that the product you purchase maybe a few states away, this tells me you did not do your homework, I would never buy product that was not locally available, another example, as a kid our neighbor had a Vauxhall car, let me tell you when he need parts, 6 months by the time they got loaded on a boat from England and shipped over, my old man drove a Ford, his repairs were always next day. I guess what I am telling you...I deal with the stocking distributors for block, because when there is a change (like we had on site today) I had product on site within 2 hours.

DIY is not a myth, there are some people who are able to grasp ICF and complete their own projects, this is also done with the help and support of the distributor. If the distributor is a drop and run type, a DIY'er should not be dealing with them. If your distributor cannot supply you with rental bracing, rebar benders, etc. a DIY'er should not be dealing with them. If your distributor cannot be available prior to pour to review your work and help out during the pour, a DIY'er should not be dealing with them. and in the same breath the DIY'er needs to realize that these services supplied by the distributor have a cost associated with them, in others words, don't expect to buy block at the same price as I do, so you can save even more money and get exceptional service in the field.

Bruce> We do not encourage ICF as a DIY project

When I started building in 2009 neighboring houses were $150-200K. A few months ago you could buy the same houses for $55-80K. If you do your own (free) labor you are behind. Add paying someone else for labor to the cost and you are way behind.

Regarding Chris' comment. I have to say that if I were to do it all over again I probably would use ICF's again. But that's just me. I know lots of people who think I'm a dummy for not building the house out of 2x4's. It seems like a better quality building technology. I agree with your analogy BMW/Chevy.

I am not against ICF's I am just saying the industry is mangled. Maybe that's a good thing. Maybe that has prevented Chinese manufacturers from taking it over and driving everybody out. As it stands ICF's are a small niche. They'll never get out of that stage until they standardize. When/if they do the Chinese will move in and clean house. So it's not a bad idea to subsidize the industry with tax incentives. At least they'll go towards supporting our local firms (as convoluted as they may be).

Jack, last week the Army Corps of Engineers released a service-wide spec for ICF construction. Called a UFGS Spec, it sets standards for the use of ICF in military construction projects.Those ICF products that are suitable for commercial construction are about to see a dramatic expansion of the market. And by the way, the Chinese will not "move in and clean house" because ICF manufacture is a highly automated process and that combined with high cost of shipping make it uneconomical to manufacture remote from the market. Thanks for asking.

Jack, one last comment: Those who know me know that I'm famous for reminding DIY-ers that labor is never free.

Tell me about it. I bought a warehouse full of ICF blocks from a distributor who wanted out of the business for $400. Cost me $200 to rent vehicles to transport it. Cost me another $200 when I filled up the budget truck (24' long) with diesel fuel. Cost of materials = Cost of transportation. I thought I was slick and bought the blocks for <$1000. Turns out the right sized web spacers new (IntegraSpec) cost another $400. OK make that < $1200. I was going to buy Reward blocks and just the shipping for 9 pallets from Colorado to California would have cost me $1200. Get this, a shipping container from China it turns out costs as much as the ICF material here. So you're right Bruce, this appears to be a China-proof industry.

Anyway the backwardness of the ICF market is a two edged sword. Builders have to buy more than they need just in case. Can't go to Lowes/Home Depot if you run short. ICF's and components have very little or no resale value. I bought 2.5 palletes of leftover Reward blocks from a guy in Tuscon for $50. I am paying $400 for 3 boxes of the right sized web spacers even though I have 6 boxes of the wrong sized ones. I'll gladly sell the web spacers for $25/box. A DIY-er can always buy for pennies on the dollar thanx to the mangled way the small companies set things up.

Why does a builder have to buy more than what he needs? As I said before, the distributor of the product should have plenty of stock and if you need a few extra pieces they should have them available for you, if not you are buying from the wrong distributor. Your distributor will also take returns if you make changes (i.e. bigger windows, etc.) provided they are in salable condition - and that's you responsibility.

You make it sound like Lowes and HD are the be all of construction materials. There is a lot of materials these places do not carry, they have a couple window lines, but not all of them, same with cabinets among other things.

You are paying a premium for the webs being shipped to you because you did not do your homework, you did save a fortune from someone wanting to unload their stock material, unfortunately it was not what you needed, now to make it what you need you are paying for materials and special shipping. A little co-ordiantion and these webs probably could have been procured through another distributor for a lower price, he would have brought them in on his next shipment. and $1200.00 LTL from CO to CA is ridiculous for 9 pallets, shop it out to brokers and that can be done for less than $ 600.00.

a 24' truck full of block, so roughly 2600 sq.ft. for less than a grand, that's a good deal, that's $0.38 sq.ft. for material, you should be thanking someone, you paid less than 10% of the realistic value of the product, the fact you need to drop another $ 400.00 to make it work for you is nothing. I would say you are trying to build the BMW on a Chevy budget, congratulations if you have the time and patience to do it and it works.

> congratulations if you have the time and patience to do it and it works

www.crazedlist.org helps

The amount of used/leftover/fire sale ICF's out there varies. Sometimes you'll find 5-10 deals within 1000 miles of where you are. Sometimes none.

Lowes and HD are the be all of construction materials. BuildBlock even sold through the Lowe's chain for a while there. ICF's didn't catch on in the mainstream I suppose.

I am new here usually a llistener and not a poster. However, I feel the need to say a thing or two here. I think the statement about DIY is a little off. I have sold and tech'ed jobs to retired couples who have done the entire home in ICF's. We rent them the alignment system and I am available if they need. We also offer training for customers prior to their build date. All of us in the ICF market are competing for a small piece of the pie but I see that piece of pie getting bigger. I have never had a customer run short of product. We stock a small inventory and have jobs direct shipped. I quoted a guy a basement two days ago and we were less than $100 from a contractor quoting CMU. There was the homeowner's labor to be considered but everything else and myself were accounted for. I think this is a DIY product for peopl ewho don't mind learning or who don't mind working and who have an enviromental and ecological conscience. I'm done. Thank you

I have the same thing on the ranch. A local guy (20 minutes drive away) rents the braces. The difference is it's not on a "if I need him" basis. He is going to charge hourly to help me stack the first 2 rows of blocks/rebar. Row 3-8 I do myself using the same pattern as row 1-2. He told me how to prepare the window/door frames which I will do myself. He ships in and installs the braces after the ICF's are up all the way. His crew is around to help during the pour. He removes and ships out the braces.

There are different variations on the DIY theme. I suppose you could do it completely DIY but it would be a risk in my opinion. Concrete is awfully expensive and unforgiving. The factor that gives me the most pause, as a DIY-er who has never done it before, is level/plumb walls. If I mess things up and the wall is crooked I will be in a terrible pickle.

By the way I got another quote from another guy. Cheap come-on-in brace rental price. But I would have to ship the braces in/out myself. Which means rent a big truck to haul them, gas it up, and hire labor to help. Daily rate was not bad $50/day. Turns out that the price was for a given amount of braces. I have a small house, 800 sq.ft. The amount of braces I would need came out to $100/day. So you have to watch out for these brace rental places. Sometimes it's more cost effective to have the shipping in/out and setup and quantity all included and done by someone else than DIY.

We rent our bracing by the piece by the week. I deliver and pick up. We have all our braces on trailers. If I sell the re-bar for the job, I usually load it on the top of the bracing. Homeowner reloads trailer when finished and I pick it up. I think it averages about $300- $500 a job. The trailers are usually out for the season going from job to job. This time of year we are fixing and cleaning. We do NOT provide planks though. I recommend they use the 2X they used for their footing forms.

Menards sells Fox Blocks. In the STL area, Nuway sells and stocks Reward forms. I believe they only stock the 8" forms. I think if you live close enough to a major metropolitan area, you won't have too much trouble finding a stocking dealer.