Guys, I really appreciate the info in my last thread. Only three things are for sure: I know I want a concrete home, I want to build as much of it as possible myself and I have been unable to make a decision on which system. I am in Baton Rouge and went see my first Arxx steel job yesterday. It was over 15000 sq. ft. and quite impressive. I do not believe this type of system is DIY friendly, especially with all the bracing involved. I really like the "seemingly" DIY possibilities of the lock together type CMU's. Ive looked at Apex, VOBB, and Liteblok. These are my thoughts: It took a while to contact Apex, the phone number always went to a general mailbox. I finally reached someone at their manufacturing plant and they gave me a sales manager's phone number. He actually sounded like a salesman and was informative and pleasant. The Apex "A" Block seems pretty easy to handle but shipping cost is quite high. I really like that the insulation properties are built-in. They do have a "B" block that can be off by 5/8ths inch due to imperfections which is a lot cheaper but I don't know if it would be smart to use on my first block building. The VOBB people are only one hour from me but they manufacture the block in TX. and FL. They have a horrendous website. It is very confusing and cluttered and the videos are not very professional. The block is basically a locking CMU with no insulating capabilities. I was hoping to use someone local but Im not so sure about this company. They use an answering service to get the owner to call back but he uses Skype. not sure why though, and it sounded horrible so I couldn't hear his return phone number. I called the answering service back a week later and we finally got back in touch. The owner of the company mostly talked about it being economical construction, i think it was about $1.10 a block plus shipping. VOBB is nothing more than a locking CMU with no insulating properties. As the owner kept repeating, the strength is in the poured concrete and rebar. I couldn't get any builder referrals or local jobs from him. The product that appeared to have the most going for it was the LiteBlok by Cresco Concrete. They have a nice website but not a lot of information on the product. I called the company no less than 10 times. The first few times there was no one there to answer Liteblok questions, a few more times I got another answering service with no call back. I sent a few email requests and got an email answer with a salesperson's cell phone number. I called him twice and got a call back finally. This was another guy completely sold on his product but he isn't much on selling it to others. He was quite defensive when I told him of the difficulty of getting info. His answer was that they was too busy to get back with everyone. It takes the average person 2 years to make a decision on this so he doesn't have to get back to people quickly. He stated that Apex has polystyrene which is dangerous went burning due to off gassing. This is not my concern since the real fire danger is off gassing due to room contents, not the room itself. Also, he said that termites would live in it even though it is coated in concrete. I questioned his statement and he said that they also coat their product in chemicals to keep out bugs which is dangerous to the occupants. He said that I need to use a grout slurry mixture without gravel to get the concrete to flow down. He could not tell me if this was weaker or stronger than standard concrete. He then said that I need an engineer to design the house anyway and they will tell me how to design the rebar and grout mix. He has no standard testing on wall structures which was disappointing. In other words I am frustrated with this whole process. I want something that I can do myself. Ive been building structures with wood for years and Ive built many unite pools. Can y'all give me some more insight on these products. Thanks.

In other words I am frustrated with this whole process.

You can get bad customer service wherever you go. That being said, you are working on the fringes. so it isn't all that surprising.

Let me get this straight....you gave up on "conventional" ICF because of the bracing involved? That shouldn't be a reason. You only really need to set bracing just before the pour. And, you have the benefit of all the previous work done on concrete/steel composites.

Don't sweat the bracing with ICF. I built my own with 2x4s and plywood. It worked just fine for my basement and main floor ICF walls. See the following link for more details.

First time, one time bracing.

Besides, even with CMU type blocks, you still need a walking platform or at least some scaffold around the wall to be able to pour the concrete in the top.

Thats the main frustration, all three of the companies had questionable customer service. That is one of the main things to look for according to a lot of the people on these boards. Im not sure what you mean by this statement: And, you have the benefit of all the previous work done on concrete/steel composites.

It may have been a mistake for my first look at a concrete house to be a house that was the size of a strip mall! It looked pretty daunting with all the steel bracing and specialty items they were using.

If you have made gunite pools, then you might want to consider SCIPs. Spray the concrete on the outside of the foam instead of pouring it in the middle.

Google "stay-in-place concrete forms" for what might be the DIY friendliest approach to concrete construction. Before the bust, there were dozens of incarnations. Dunno how many survive. In my version, I build a wall out of 2x4 metal studs 24" OC, minus the header. Thread No. 4 rebar through the wall 12" OC horizontally, and 24" OC vertically, between the studs. Install electrical conduit and plumbing chases as needed. Screw high profile metal lathe to the inside. (Sheet metal stamped to create a 3/8 inch relief for concrete to fill.) Screw XPS styrofoam to the outside. Fill with concrete. I was going to carry the second floor on steel I beams welded to steel posts set in the concrete wall 8 feet OC. (And did so in my belt and suspenders AAC house.) At that point your concrete and steel box will be sounder structurally than a concrete bowl made of 8 inch walls. Needless to say, an engineer and your building inspector must agree. I was going to tackle it in lifts. Screw on a 2-foot layer of foam board. Fill with concrete. Repeat next day. I chose AAC because it was easier given my design.

I like it although 2x6" metal studs and foam on both sides makes more sense to me.

Ive narrowed my choices down to Buildblock or Quadlock. I started another thread about it. Thanks

You'd need extra foam to meet IECC 2009. I'd go 2x6 with two inches of xps inside and out. The beauty of concrete is that you can imbed j bolts in it that extend through the foam. With 5/4 4 inch PT furring bolted to concrete through the foam, you could siding on it of any weight with as few thermal bridges as one every 4 SF. Having the mass exposed to the interior should push performance above ICF even in climates like mine that aren't particularly suited to high mass.

Regarding stay in place forms, one could probably use far fewer metal studs if you placed numerous plastic bolts (preferably with push on nuts) from side to side. Ie, just something to keep the foam from bowing out when the concrete goes in.

The studs stand in for rebar as well as support the form so you wouldn't want to drop too many. That said, steel 12 inches OC each way plus steel posts is probably serious overkill. You'd need engineering anyway so you might ask about minimum steel placement and adjust the studs and rebar accordingly. I like to exceed minimum by a substantial amount to compensate for the mistakes in design and execution that are pretty much inevitable in DIY.

I like your plastic bolts. The metal lath is sure to bulge. My initial plan was to sandwich the wall in 2' strips of 3/4 OSB screwed to the stud, through bolted or C clamped, and move them up as the wall progresses. You'd have plenty of time for adjustments and refinements. I passed on ICF because your bag of improvisations becomes quite small indeed once the pumper truck turns in the drive.

Hi Billybob... I read your plight.. Fun is all in your mind... So decide to have fun... Ask questions... Find an expert and pick their mind... I have a similar goal of building a concrete home as well... Back in the Sixties I designed my concrete dome house with earth cover and lined with pink panther insulation on the inside never built it.... But., ... Today, after researching ICF Products over the past six years, and one product stands out over the rest... NUDURA... Not only is it amateur friendly, the fact that it mechanically locks together every eight inches... Vertical course on top of vertical course.... Light weight , off white, collapsible for twice the amount of product on each truck...and many more ... Look it up on the Web... You can even have ICF engineered to become your ICF SLOPED ROOF ...attaching walls to your roof ... So hang in there.,. Do as much of the project as you can... There are always plenty of folks that can talk you through to get the job done....think Fun and ask questions ... Best regards, ROB