I've lurked here for a while, read many threads, but most are still rather foreign to me. So let me start. My wife and I plan to build on a southern facing ridge in Northeastern PA. We reviewed many plans and found little ICF designs we liked. We plan on a Hillside walk out. I research ICF construction, but they are few and far in my rural area, and general contractors only wish to sell you what they know and are comfortable with. My wife and I finally settled on a plan we both liked, but it was a SC home design from Donald Gardner, the walls show 2 X 4 construction, something that's of little use in my area. I spoke to a nudura distributor, and he said he can supply the ICF forms, and I also found a concrete company who comes recommended from the distributor as well as my brother in law who owns the concrete pump truck business, who I will likely have do the floor and pump work. I also found a custom builder who I feel comfortable with, but never worked with ICF, but willing to learn. I am willing to do it even though its not recommended by many here. Otherwise I will have to fall back on 2 x 6 construction. What would be ya'lls suggestions for the roof? We wish to use wood trusses and framing, but unsure about the insulation, there are some cathedral ceilings in the design. I am also concerned about the heating and cooling. I know the local neighbors went 800 feet for their well, and there is also extensive blue stone in the ground. So the price of a geothermal ground unit is likely not to be feasible. I am leaning towards a Air to air heat pump unit, LP fireplace upstairs, and a pellet insert downstairs. Combined with a heated floor in the basement. Do they make a heat pump that can due forced air and heat the floor? Any suggestions for solar shingles to help off set the cost? I would like to use the shingles because I can still get the tax rebate is they are part of the structure as far as I know. I'm still rather lost on the heating and cooling and wish to be able to afford the taxes when I grow old. It has also been my experience that I need to be able to have more than one source of heat. Any suggestions would be a great help even if its not a net zero home and doesn't require another mortgage. Thanks

tollster,
One thing about the Gardner design is once you purchase them you can have another architect redo the exterior shell for icf. All of the interior walls and beam locations will remain the same. I did one years ago in Georgia and just used the Gardner plans and adjusted the walls to icf myself-it's not rocket surgery. I prefer trusses whenever I can use them for the speed and convenience but all houses are different. It may be cost prohibitive if it is a very cut up roof and better suited to stick built. Anywhere you have a cathedral ceiling I would defitely use a spray foam for insulation. The rest of the roof is up to you and your budget. I'm not an hvac guy and build in the South with a predominate cooling period and use mainly heat pumps. Just remember that if the temps are in the twenties they are not going to warm things up without the heat strips and your meter will spin off the wall.However, with auxillary heat sources you may be ok but I can't say. I would think a heat pump a/c with gas heat (what we call a gas pack) would be right for the job.

You should also look at mini-splits for a cold region.  Mitsubishi and Daikin AC come to mind.  I am not up on LG mini-splits (South Korea).  Post your zip code and Dana1 may have some suggestions.

tollster - lots of people diy ICF. Take your time. Make sure everything is braced correctly. Read and reread Nudura's manual.
Make sure the pump has a reduced hose and that the pump jib is laid as flat as possible to limit the fall distance of the concrete.

Consider scissor trusses rather then TJI's for the cathedral portion to give yourself more insulation room.

The better the envelope is, the less important the heating system.

Posted By Alton on 03 Mar 2014 09:48 PM
You should also look at mini-splits for a cold region.  Mitsubishi and Daikin AC come to mind.  I am not up on LG mini-splits (South Korea).  Post your zip code and Dana1 may have some suggestions.

How about a Mitsubishi or Daikin heat pump matched up with a common HVAC air handler?

Posted By ricky_005 on 04 Mar 2014 12:37 AM

Posted By Alton on 03 Mar 2014 09:48 PM
You should also look at mini-splits for a cold region.  Mitsubishi and Daikin AC come to mind.  I am not up on LG mini-splits (South Korea).  Post your zip code and Dana1 may have some suggestions.

How about a Mitsubishi or Daikin heat pump matched up with a common HVAC air handler?

Not for Daikin, and probably not for Mitsubishi. I have a Daikin system. The air handler communicates with the controller on the wall and the motherboard in the main unit. In other words, it's an integrated processor controlled system. I used their ceiling mounted duct type air handler in the crawl space. Works great.

Daikin did, back in 2008, use a third party air handler of normal furnace type configuration but I don't know what they have available now.

Home in Texas with Mitsubishi VRF heat pump and standard air handler with variable speed blower.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vie4kHN_iYU

Mitsubishi High static pressure air handler
http://www.mitsubishipro.com/en/pro...units/pvfy

Daikin High static pressure air handler
http://www.daikinac.com/content/ass...i-Fold.pdf

LG High static pressure air handlers for VRF
http://www.lg-vrf.com/vertical-air-handlers.aspx


I would think as long as the Air Handler has a variable speed blower most should work just fine with a Mitsubishi VRF. Problem is having knowledge of how to match up a air handler that will perform well with it. Secondly I would prefer to use automated dampers for zoning ..... that is a problem .... might end up going with Carrier Green-speed .... Maybe by the time I build, Carrier will have them capable of powering down low like the Mitsubishi units.

I would say the reason you don't hear much about the standard whole house air handlers from Mitsubishi/Daikin is they want to market and sell you multiple mini air handlers ..... zoning has benefits but needs to be implemented realistically, will certainly keep the parts division quite busy in the years to come. When it comes time to lay out the design for my HVAC system I will look and see if it can financially enhance my build by zoning using the Horizontal Ducted units. But with such a low static pressure on the cassettes I have my doubts about them.
 
Another issue is having several multi zone units in a home is when you have refrigerant leaks in the lines, or in the mini split units themselves ... why not just have (1) Air handler (1) refrigerant line, rather than 5 or 6 air handlers/refrigerant/drain lines in a home. Another problem is as you scale up in tonnage, the mini splits systems are less efficient. In the long run mini splits very well may be more expensive to maintain.

I have suggestions :
o Do not try to save money from drawings,
o Do not mix 2by4 wood design with ICF,
o Get help from an engineer.
You will not regret.

I checked the air systems.
This zonning thing is complex and not common.
Use something that is used everywhere.
Otherwise expensive service costs may be in effect.

I took the plan to a draftsman that has altered plans to conform to ICF before. I figured going from 2x4 to 12' walls would create issues with projections, inside corners and window placements. I like the idea of the scissor trusses. They would allow more spray insulation and not alter the cathedral ceiling look on the inside with the tapered design?

I took the plan to a draftsman that has altered plans to conform to ICF before.

Were you able to get a confirmation from the "draftsman's" client about how that worked out?

ICFHybrid I totally agree with you on that statement. A client had a "designer" do a set of plans for an icf a few years ago from an original set of plans for a 2x4 house. This one wasn't a box and had several walls with windows that I pointed out needed to be moved-some one foot some more than two to get them centered in the rooms.

ICF can be successfully accomplished DIY and most companies will even provide onsite consultation/support at minimal expense. As the others have said, converting 2x drawings to ICF drawings often involves more than just changing the wall dimensions, so you really need to be careful here. With regard to roof construction recommendations, you may want to consider SSIPs in lieu of wood trusses. Best solution depends on roof geometry complexity with the SSIPs winning out as this tends to simple.

I had an interesting topic come up today with someone who has built ICF locally. I have to reiterate that ICF is not the norm on my parts, it is few and far in between for residential. He mentioned Lentils or as I know them, Headers over windows and doors. Since I am going up 2 floors, he said he had to get a 3rd party engineer to design the ICF headers to the house plan, and used steel beams. He mention the ICF form company had an acceptance stamp for their lintels, but no for the larger sized windows he used. The reason he had to do this was to satisfy the local state construction inspector. I'm not sure what to think about this, I have reviewed the nudura site but could not find any engineering certification on various widths, and forwarded the question to the regional supplier. Since it the weekend, I thought I would post here. I have research ICF on line which is how I ended up here.Sorry I am green, but its a little know construction practice in my parts. I will keep the SIPS in mind for the roof, but its a complex design, with many different changes in elevation and some various pitches.

Posted By tollster on 07 Mar 2014 05:28 PM
I had an interesting topic come up today with someone who has built ICF locally. I have to reiterate that ICF is not the norm on my parts, it is few and far in between for residential. He mentioned Lentils or as I know them, Headers over windows and doors. Since I am going up 2 floors, he said he had to get a 3rd party engineer to design the ICF headers to the house plan, and used steel beams. He mention the ICF form company had an acceptance stamp for their lintels, but no for the larger sized windows he used. The reason he had to do this was to satisfy the local state construction inspector. I'm not sure what to think about this, I have reviewed the nudura site but could not find any engineering certification on various widths, and forwarded the question to the regional supplier. Since it the weekend, I thought I would post here. I have research ICF on line which is how I ended up here.Sorry I am green, but its a little know construction practice in my parts. I will keep the SIPS in mind for the roof, but its a complex design, with many different changes in elevation and some various pitches.

Lintel size is prescribed in terms of ratios of the opening width vs the depth of the solid concrete wall above the opening. Look in this document, "PRESCRIPTIVE METHOD FOR INSULATING CONCRETE FORMS IN RESIDENTIAL CONSTRUCTION". http://www.huduser.org/Publications/PDF/icf_2ed.pdf Lintel requirements are in Tables 5.7 and 5.8.

Without looking at the exact requirements an example would be like for a doorway 18" deep wall above will suffice, but if you have a 6' wide window you might need to have a 3 foot deep wall above it. The window widths you're referring to may be wider than what is in the document, or the available wall depth above the window may not be enough. Two stories vs. one story really has nothing directly to do with it.