The inspector who was working with me all along retired.   The new inspector and her boss visited my site and her boss got a cow.    Gave me a long list of corrections that I need to take care of.   They have never seen and do not understand ICF's.   The biggest pickle will be to prove that how I did my electrical wiring is within code.   The downtown electrical division starts their discussion with "what are ICF's?" and ends their discussion with a demand that the wiring method I used be UL approved.    They want to see the UL certification for what I am doing.   Good grief!

Can anybody point me to the exact location in the NEC that says that it is within code to cut groves in ICF walls with a hot knife or saw and stick your romex wires in there?    I can show them the Reward or Integraspec installation instructions but they only understand NEC or UL.  

Jack,
what state and county are you in? did you do the installation yourself or did you use an ICF sub, your plans as submitted did they show ICF walls? did your 1st inspector give you copies of your "passed" inspections? if so which ones have been passed so far, it shouldn't be a big deal to get them up to speed on ICF, it actually happens more than you think, getting better but you might be the learning curve for them? nothing quick with the county inspectors though! take a breath you'll be fine.
thx

As far as I know, the wires have to be at least 1-1/4" below the wall surface before drywall, and the wires need to be 'secured' within 8" of the box. What is their problem with? I shot mine with foam near the boxes, and they are plenty secure. I used pieces of foam to hold the romex deep enough in the wall. They barely looked at mine, though. There are rules about not having too many wires in a 'conduit', so you wouldn't want a huge bundle of wires in one channel more than 24" long.

Posted By jdebree on 06 Sep 2014 06:53 PM
As far as I know, the wires have to be at least 1-1/4" below the wall surface before drywall, and the wires need to be 'secured' within 8" of the box. What is their problem with? I shot mine with foam near the boxes, and they are plenty secure. I used pieces of foam to hold the romex deep enough in the wall. They barely looked at mine, though. There are rules about not having too many wires in a 'conduit', so you wouldn't want a huge bundle of wires in one channel more than 24" long.

Wonderful!!!   Can I take the jdebree certification to my electrical division and tell them that the method of installation is jdebree certified?

Posted By billnaegeli on 06 Sep 2014 03:51 PM
Jack,
what state and county are you in? did you do the installation yourself or did you use an ICF sub, your plans as submitted did they show ICF walls? did your 1st inspector give you copies of your "passed" inspections? if so which ones have been passed so far, it shouldn't be a big deal to get them up to speed on ICF, it actually happens more than you think, getting better but you might be the learning curve for them? nothing quick with the county inspectors though! take a breath you'll be fine.
thx

I am in Los Angeles County.  They have a love affair with UL.    They stopped a solar ranch construction because the panels were not UL certified.  The guy at the electrical division told me he wants to see the UL listing on the installation method.   That's probably not going to happen.  What I am hoping for is something in the NEC which would mention that it is ok to do wiring like they suggest in the ICF installation manuals.

I did have written copies of passed inspections.   I had a break-in and the nice tube with plans was taken.   Either way if the building and safety supervisor and my new inspector stops the show and says this is what they want to see showing them an old piece of paper from the previous inspector is just going to get them upset at me.  

As it stands the drywall has to be removed and the electrical has to be revisited.  I have to show them how the electrical wires will be protected against people sticking screws in the wall to hang up pictures and what not.   I called the electrical division in Alhambra and the conversation starts with "what are ICF's".   The tone and attitude of that question sounded like "what are you trying to pull???".    They want to see something UL.   Maybe something NEC will do.   Is there anything like that for this method of installing wires into ICF's?

I wonder if at some point it doesn't become easier to get a PE to approve it.

Have the ICF manufacturer write a letter stating their approved method of electrical installation, along with approvals from other jurisdictions that what they are saying is correct and acceptable.

9 times out of 10, if you can show the inspector the SOP and take the time to review it with them, they are fine

I found this:


http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/4/aft/24886/afv/topic/Default.aspx

This is about as close as you'll get with the NEC. I don't know what the location would be in the current NEC, but from the 2006 IRC, Table E3702.1, third line down.

Where installed in grooves, to be covered by wallboard, siding, paneling, carpeting, or similar finish, wiring methods shall be protected by 0.0625-inch-thick steel plate, sleeve, or equivalent, a listed steel plate or by not less than 11/4-inch free space for the full length of the groove in which the cable or raceway is installed.

This requirement is noted as applicable to NM cable. Obviously, installation in grooves is permitted, and the material the groove is in is not specified. The IRC reprints the parts of the NEC applicable to residential construction.

I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of 2 x 4 walls where there isn't 1 1/4" between the wallboard and wire because the wire goes around pipes or other objects or is pushed toward one side by insulation.

So I get the impression that there is no clearly apparent reference in the NEC that I can take to the electric department.  I did not think so.

Time for plan B.  I am going to call electrical and offer a work around.   To strip off the outer insulation from the romex and stick it in flex aluminum as it runs through the wall to the outlet.

dmaceld posted a fairly clear excerpt from the NEC. The wires can be installed in a groove, as long as they are at least 1-1/4" below the surface, essentially what I said. No need to get smarmy about it.

I feel your pain. It's obvious that they A) Aren't familiar with modern building techniques, and B) Have a God complex about what they will allow. I'm surprised that inspectors in a major metro area aren't familiar with ICF. Tearing out work after it has already been approved is just ridiculous. That being said, it's not like you can go to a competing building inspector- you're stuck with these obstructive clowns.

Can you be more specific regarding the actual issue the inspector identified? UL Standards are for products such as the wiring and electrical boxes. The National Electric Code (NEC) provides specifications for how these devices are to be installed. Is the inspector just looking for the UL stamp on the wiring and boxes?

As mentioned previously, NEC 2011 Article 300.4 "Protection Against Physical Damage", sub-section (F) "Cables and Raceways Installed in Shallow Grooves" requires the wiring be kept a minimum of 1-1/4" below the wall covering.

https://www.inkling.com/read/nfpa-national-electrical-code-handbook-2011/chapter-3/i--general-requirements

How did you attach your electrical boxes? Did you use metal or plastic boxes? Did you use standard nail-on plastic boxes and just spray foamed them in place without the nails? Or did you drill through the box and use a tapcon to secure it to the concrete? Either way, I can see an inspector dinging you for that because it was installed in a manner the manufacture never intended and was not tested in that configuration. Did you have the NM cable jacket secured within the box clamp?

Posted By jacktca on 08 Sep 2014 04:14 AM
So I get the impression that there is no clearly apparent reference in the NEC that I can take to the electric department.  I did not think so.

Time for plan B.  I am going to call electrical and offer a work around.   To strip off the outer insulation from the romex and stick it in flex aluminum as it runs through the wall to the outlet.

First, your Romex idea won't fly. I broached that with my electrical inspector when I was building my house. The hitch is the individual wires are not labeled or marked in any fashion, thus you cannot show what the specific wire type, insulation, and gauge is, therefore they cannot be used as individual wires in a conduit.

Second, very calmly ask the inspector to cite you specifically what requirement in the code you are violating. I spent 22 years enforcing rules and regulations on contractors. It was tough for some audit team members to accept the fact that you cannot legally write up a finding, or citation, on something you don't like. You MUST be able to cite a specific code, regulation, or law that a particular condition violates or is contrary to. If the condition is not contrary to a written requirement that the company or person is bound to comply with, it cannot be prohibited.

The National Electrical Code DOES NOT contain a provision that states that any wiring method not specifically permitted is prohibited.

You may have to ask them to submit an inquiry to the state electrical board. This question has to have come up inside California at some time in the past.

OK the final decision that the electric department made is not so bad.  I can do romex in the ceiling all I want.  To go through the ICF wall to the outlet I have 3 choices.  A) steel flex tube with cables provided inside by the manufacturer  B) emt conduit  C) pvc conduit.    Given that conduit is rigid and groves in styrofoam are not always straight A will probably be the easier choice for this fix.   I will need to install a little junction box on the ceiling to connect from romex to the wires in the flex tube.  

> This question has to have come up inside California at some time in the past.

So you say but in Los Angeles County none of the inspectors and nobody in the electrical division downtown has ever heard of ICF's.   They get spasticated when you mention the idea.   They tell you to tear everything apart and start over.   They are not very rational. 

Given this environment it is safe to say to ignore the installation instructions for electrical of most ICF manufacturers and double check with the local electrical department and get their blessing, not just your inspector's blessing, before doing anything.   I had an inspector who let me do it the way the ICF manufacturer recommended.  He retired and now I am in a pickle.   I have to tear down the drywall and redo my electrical.    Good thing I did not do mudding and painting yet!

Hold on a second now,

Since you feel you have lost the battle with the city, have one more round with them.

Show me where it states I must do what you are asking.

Those are words they do not want to hear from you, they cannot arbitrarily come up with items not spec'd in any code book as a requirement unless they already have an addendum to the code already written and approved, sounds like they don't as you have said, they are not familiar with ICF. This is your chance to get them on board, show them, have the manufacturer deal with them and any respected manufacturer with a tech department will deal with this and make it happen.

ditto what Chris said. You shouldn't have to remove sheetrock and all that expense.
It boggles my mind why the inspectors there aren't educated in ICF in earthquake country!! Where are you in CA? Maybe you need to contact inspectors in other towns that have more experience in this construction.  If you can find inspectors in other areas in CA that are very familiar with this, they can help educate the inspectors in your area.

Posted By jacktca on 06 Sep 2014 02:55 PM
..to prove that how I did my electrical wiring is within code...  

For some reason, I don't think we have the whole story here.  Were you required to have an electrical rough-in inspection prior to hanging drywall?  If so, did you have the inspection performed and was it signed off by an inspector?  If the answer to that question is yes, then it seems case closed.  If you were required to get an electrical rough-in inspection performed prior hanging drywall and did not get the inspection performed, then yeah, you screwed yourself and will have to make amends with the building inspectors.  But there shouldn't be any reason you can't leave the Romex in the ICF foam channels assuming it is secure and >1-1/4" below the surface as allowed by the NEC.  Did you place the wiring deeper than 1-1/4" in the foam?  Did you secure the wire near the box and every few feet with spray foam or some other means?