We're in the process of having our ICF house plans done up (99.999% complete) and now we're looking at which exact kitchen cabinets, etc we want. For the sake of this post, let's assume that we're going to use IKEA cabinets (like 'em or hate 'em, I care not, I'm using their sizing for references to figure it all out)

We will have natural gas and electric, so I want to plan for the ability to use either one for oven and cooktop. The oven will be built-in and the cooktop will obviously only be a cooktop (not a range). Since my kitchen ('L" shape) borders an outside wall, I'm trying to determine a few things:

1) can gas lines go into the foam? or will I have to create a studded wall on the side with the oven/cooktop?
2) regardless of cabinet brand, I was planning to use the "rod" or "french cleat" method to attach the upper cabinets to the wall. Assuming I don't have a studded wall to use, what method do you use to secure the rod/cleat to the wall? (my understanding is that the plastic studs in the ICF aren't strong enough to hold kitchen cabinets)
3) If I do have to create a studded wall, what's the thinnest I can get away with since it's not structural (other than hanging cabinets)?

I think that's all I have for now.

Thanks!

1. The gas line should be able to go into the foam, but depending upon spacing to surface, you may have to "Armor" it(like electrical wiring) to prevent accidental damage since they are hidden from view. To preserve the insulation qualities of the ICF, it might be better to build a chase for them inside the cabinet, of course leaving enough free penetration space to make them considered "legally" protected from possible damage. there are code rules and manufacturers installation specifications you can look at for further specifics on what is acceptable for gas and electrical routing.
2. What block are you planning on? They should have a published spec for screw pullout and shear. How heavy are these cabinets you are planning on? Unless they are lead lined, I am thinking most ICF webs are going to be easilly able to support them, especially considering most cabinets are mounted on walls with stud spacing 16-24" Most ICF webs are spaced at half this distance, ~8"O.C. As an example Fox claims 120# for pullout and shear in their technical descriptions/brocures. Their actual test data is much higher depending on the fastener(deck screws exceed 200#) Here is their test report. http://www.foxblocks.com/media/40754/astm-d1761-direct-withrawal-and-lateral-test-report.pdf
Quadlock publishes numbers also seen at this link at the bottom of the page. http://www.quadlock.com/technical_library/evaluations/ Their lowest published number in either mode is 125# and I don't think they used anything as agressive as a deck screw. Check with your block manufacturer.
3. I don't think a wall will be necessary. IF you are concerned about number of available connection points like for narrow cabinets, you could always put up a layer of 1/2"-3/4"plywood that gets good attachment numbers across a bunch of the ICF webs, and would allow you as many anchor points thru the cabinets anchor webs/areas as you wish.

Berky - if you have a basement, bring the gas and electric up into the cabinets from the joist space after the cabinets are mounted. Much cleaner, much quicker and the gas fitter can do the whole thing in one trip.

If you are concerned about the weight of cabinets, layout the kitchen on the foam wall. Use half inch plywood, just smaller then the layout, with lots of screws into the plastic strips. Fill in the rest of the wall with regular half inch drywall.

As an experiment, I attached a piece of 2X4 to my Fox blocks with a single deck screw. I was able to hang my 200 lbs. without it pulling out. I think the idea of mounting plywood first is the best idea. If you're really worried about it, you could put some long Tap-Cons all the way through into the concrete. We didn't put any uppers at all in our kitchen. We have 33 drawers, which allow a lot more storage than cabinets. Two of our walls have windows, so uppers weren't possible there. We have one wall where we could put uppers, but haven't done it. The effect is a very bright, open, airy kitchen.

One thing to not forget is that you will need to put a hood vent exhaust since you are doing gas. This hole will need to go through the ICF wall so it needs to be put in BEFORE you pour, otherwise you will have an expensive retrofit later on.

The plywood/OSB idea is a good one. It spreads the loads throughout the wall and makes it easy to anchor into.

ronmar,

1) I was considering that as well, but I will have to check how far back the cabinet drawers go. If they are touching the back of the cabinet, that won't work.

2) I'm planning to use Fox. I'll check that link you sent. Thanks!

3) If I used the described method, would this cause an issue with the fire rating? I know it's specifically stated by the ICF manufacturers that you need the drywall even in areas like a basement for a certain fire rating. I'm not sure what the "code" says or what an inspector might say. Are there any 'coatings' like a paint or something you can apply to the foam to get past this?

FBBP,

Yes, I will have a basement under the kitchen. I just responded to the guy above you that my only worry with that was how far back the cabinet drawers will go. They won't be shelving that I could just drill through.

See my other post about my question regarding the plywood and fire rating.

Posted By Lbear on 27 Dec 2015 02:44 PM
One thing to not forget is that you will need to put a hood vent exhaust since you are doing gas. This hole will need to go through the ICF wall so it needs to be put in BEFORE you pour, otherwise you will have an expensive retrofit later on.

The plywood/OSB idea is a good one. It spreads the loads throughout the wall and makes it easy to anchor into.

Do you know what the code requirement is for a gas range? I'm planning to install the gas hookup, but I'm likely going with an induction cooktop. This way I have an option to change later if I wish. (I'm a firm believer in making things cheaper down the road). I was planning on only doing a carbon filtered recirculating hood. I have a basic electric range now and I never use the fan (over-the-range microwave).

Posted By jdebree on 27 Dec 2015 07:15 AM
As an experiment, I attached a piece of 2X4 to my Fox blocks with a single deck screw. I was able to hang my 200 lbs. without it pulling out. I think the idea of mounting plywood first is the best idea. If you're really worried about it, you could put some long Tap-Cons all the way through into the concrete. We didn't put any uppers at all in our kitchen. We have 33 drawers, which allow a lot more storage than cabinets. Two of our walls have windows, so uppers weren't possible there. We have one wall where we could put uppers, but haven't done it. The effect is a very bright, open, airy kitchen.

good to know. thanks! I plan on using Fox as well.

berky - as a rule, what is required is thermal protection. This is supplied by the 1/2" plywood. In Canada the codes do not allow intumescent paint because it does not provide enough thermal protection to prevent the foam from getting hot.
Usually a 24" cabinet has 22" drawers.

The ply shouldn't be a problem, it will be covered with the cabinets

Since you like to plan ahead, I would put in the wall penetration for an outside vented hood as well. One thing I quickly learned in our very tight ICF home is that cooking smells will linger forever unless you vent them. I'm not sure if the recirculating type will effectively do this, as I've never used one. Seal up the penetration and use a recirculating hood, then if it doesn't work, it's relatively easy to install a venting hood. I know outside vents expel conditioned air and thus waste energy, but you have to live in the house, too. We rarely used a hood in our older, leaky homes, but a really tight house is a different story. Now we use the hood regularly.

berky-I used Fox as well, I went with the higher R Silver Fox blocks, as well as Fox Bucks for all window and door openings. One thing I wish I did is run 4" 1/2 plywood around all exterior walls at the floor to make it a lot easier to install baseboard.

Posted By Stuie on 29 Dec 2015 09:50 AM
berky-I used Fox as well, I went with the higher R Silver Fox blocks, as well as Fox Bucks for all window and door openings. One thing I wish I did is run 4" 1/2 plywood around all exterior walls at the floor to make it a lot easier to install baseboard.

That sounds like a good one for the "What would you do different" thread...

Posted By Stuie on 29 Dec 2015 09:50 AM
berky-I used Fox as well, I went with the higher R Silver Fox blocks, as well as Fox Bucks for all window and door openings. One thing I wish I did is run 4" 1/2 plywood around all exterior walls at the floor to make it a lot easier to install baseboard.

I'm not quite following how that makes things easier to install baseboard. Can you explain? I can only assume that you are referring to the finishing nails 'holding' into wood vs drywall.

Posted By jdebree on 29 Dec 2015 08:29 AM
Since you like to plan ahead, I would put in the wall penetration for an outside vented hood as well. One thing I quickly learned in our very tight ICF home is that cooking smells will linger forever unless you vent them. I'm not sure if the recirculating type will effectively do this, as I've never used one. Seal up the penetration and use a recirculating hood, then if it doesn't work, it's relatively easy to install a venting hood. I know outside vents expel conditioned air and thus waste energy, but you have to live in the house, too. We rarely used a hood in our older, leaky homes, but a really tight house is a different story. Now we use the hood regularly.

I had planned on using a recirculating vent with charcoal filter, but I suppose if I put a pipe in for an exterior vent and filled it with spray foam, that would give me the ability to core it out later pretty easily if I felt I needed to go that route. Not a bad idea, thanks.

Posted By FBBP on 28 Dec 2015 06:10 PM
berky - as a rule, what is required is thermal protection. This is supplied by the 1/2" plywood. In Canada the codes do not allow intumescent paint because it does not provide enough thermal protection to prevent the foam from getting hot.
Usually a 24" cabinet has 22" drawers.

Thanks, I looked at a few cabinets and it does appear to be as you state. So, I don't think I need to worry about running the gas lines directly in the foam. That should make things a lot easier for the kitchen layout.

I built my house from ICF, and used metal studs for the interior walls. Installing trim is a pain, as you have to use trim screws, which have a much larger hole to fill for painting. I should have installed plywood as mentioned. I thought about it, but don't remember now why I didn't.

You can use a power finish nail gun to install baseboard and other trim directly into the webs of most blocks. Give a try with a scrap of block. I tried it about 10 years ago and the only way to remove the nail is by twisting as you pull. More that enough holding power for trim. You just have to mark the webs on the floor before dry wall is installed

Fox web ties will hold the cabinets and also provide more than adequate nailer for base and casing trim. We do it all the time, not a problem.