Hi Everyone, I'm new to this forum, so hope I'm posting in the right area. My wife and I bought an Acreage a few years ago, and found out the hard way that there is a problem with the foundation. During a snow melt, water started showing up in the basement. We now have black mold patches on the wall. I moved everything out of the room (about 15' x 20') and ripped out the permanent shelves screwed to the wall. So now i'm down to the infected walls. It looks like it's been like this for awhile because I can see where the previous owner painted over the black mold. My questions are: 1) I will tear out the black mold drywall down to the Styrofoam, which I guess is probably about 2 inches thick. Is okay just to start ripping? Since the Styrofoam has been in contact with the black mold, I will replace it anyways. During a visit to a Home reno show this year, I chatted with a guy from a company said it should be okay to tear it all apart, and then get Styrofoam from home depot when the repair is done. 2) I know there are two cracks from the top going to the bottom where the water is coming in, I can't see the cracks but know they are there. Do I have to excavate the outside (major pain do due concrete pad + Natural gas) to fix this properly, or can it some how be fixed from the inside? I appreciate any help with this, feel free to ask any questions. I can provide pictures when I get down to the cement. G

It's sometimes possible to waterproof from the interior using products like Xypex, etc, but you'll know more once you have it stripped down to the bare concrete. One problem with ICF construction is that it's impossible to visually inspect the quality of the pour, making voids large & small are possible to miss prior to installing the finish wall, and cracks in the wall aren't always visible on the above-grade exterior until the problem is pretty big.

It's worth reviewing this recent bit o' bloggery before diving into the actual remediation: http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/building-science/installing-basement-waterproofing-negative-side

Can we assume you've done all you can in terms of sloping the exterior surface grade away from the house, inspected & adjusted any roof gutters to ensure that they are draining properly, and far enough away from the foundation? How deep are the roof overhangs?

Your title says icf house but it seems your describing a poured wall. Which is it?

icf walls aren't poured? How would you describe them?

Proper way is to excavate to make sure the outside has it proper waterproofing and or dimplemat installed outside. My guess is it doesn't have much, any or poor installation. Good peel n stick etc and drainage bed & pipes would eliminate most water issues without tearing the foam apart inside. Sure you can remove the sheetrock easily, unless it's glued. Removing the eps from the concrete is not easy due to the adhesion and the plastic webbing and ties holding everything together. You remove all of that, attaching new foam and sheetrock will be difficult. Just removing the foam and putting new in would be a pain. I would remove the Sheetrock and clean the fungus off of the foam. Fix outside and put it back together. Even if you remove everything from inside and try to seal all the cracks which is possible, your opening a huge can of worms.

Pull off some drywall. Since foam really isn't a growth medium for mold(no food), I think you will find the foam under the drywall is fine and easilly cleaned...

I agree outside waterproofing is best. To do it right on the inside, you will have to cut out the floor slab around the perimeter to put in an inside periimeter drain, then you need to get the water from that drain back outside...

With all the work involved to do it right, It is probably a tossup as to which is easier/cheaper. Outside would probably have fewer steps and higher odds for success...

Good luck

Posted By ronmar on 28 May 2017 06:02 PM
 Since foam really isn't a growth medium for mold(no food),

Where are you getting your data from?

Interwebs, same as everyone else

Mold spores are ready to spring to life as a growing colony if they are provided with three primary conditions:

A temperature range between 47-120 degrees F.
Nutrients (something to eat- organic matter like the cellulose in the dryall paper).
Moisture/Water.

Last i recall EPS foam is inorganic. It can however host mold living off of the nutrients in dust that has settled there, but removing that food source, and most importantly the moisture source should recitfy that problem without having to remove the foam...

Posted By ronmar on 29 May 2017 02:16 AM
Interwebs, same as everyone else

Mold spores are ready to spring to life as a growing colony if they are provided with three primary conditions:

A temperature range between 47-120 degrees F.
Nutrients (something to eat- organic matter like the cellulose in the dryall paper).
Moisture/Water.

Last i recall EPS foam is inorganic. It can however host mold living off of the nutrients in dust that has settled there, but removing that food source, and most importantly the moisture source should recitfy that problem without having to remove the foam...

Pulling general blurbs off the internet is not "data". I'm not sure what you mean by "everyone else" above but, only someone that has no idea what they are talking about would do that. We have many test standards that show how inorganic and organic matter are tested to determine levels of " fungi resistance". "Last I checked" foam is not zero. I'm conducted lab test now and there are plenty of inorganic matters that produce mold. Try again, this time show the "data" from the ICF manufactures fungi testing since foam can vary drastically from mfg-to.mfg since anything else is hersay?

So tell me, if it's not the foam causing black mold what is? Does your or anybody's plan prove the mold won't just grow again? Better yet, do you fully understand what "black mold" is and how it grows? Is it the problem here? There are 1000's of spores all with different characteristics, many in just the black mold family, so I have no idea how this goggle rule of thumb you want to apply works?

The fact of the matter is, fungi and bacteria (microbial science) is a complicated science NOBODY on the internet is going to be able to advise on by some cheap goggle search, they obviously cannot interpret the info correctly, or, even know where to look. It gets even more complicated in buildings, that's why we have a TON of industry publications, test and design standards, and professionals like PHDs @ ISIAQ, AIHA, EPA, HVI, ASHRAE, etc, etc, etc... many differing, debating still after decades. "Last I checked" ISIAQ has the latest white paper research the biggest findings in basements. These organizations are still trying to figure out cause and corrective actions standards, so, I have no idea how you did? To think it all boils down to goggle by the unqualified is ignorance.

Once the OP shows some interest in the thread, I'll post a corrective action plan that involves the right professionals. I can state this with a 100% accuracy, that plan won't come from free advice from a forum, that probably won't solve the issue, especially here or GBA.

One good piece of advice would be to vacate the premise immediately, especially if there are infants or elderly, or anyone known to have respiratory sensitivity or illness.. Here is a publication on that, not conclusive on humans "last I checked" there may be follow ons.

Start here, but, there is a whole lot more to it: http://www.knowthecause.com/downloads/Carey2012SatratoxinMonkeyOlfactoryNeurons.pdf

Foam is one of the leading causes in building's , it is not inert and non-reactive, further exasperated by what people don't understand they are mating to, ICF being one of the worse! Welcome to the ICF nightmare! Mycotoxins cannot be visually inspected so pulling drywall will be a waste of effort. Escalating can lead to the same.

A lot more data is needed before ALOT of $$$ is wasted, in the professional world it's called FRACAS: Any less, more ignorance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failure_reporting,_analysis,_and_corrective_action_system

Posted By PARAHOMES on 29 May 2017 12:07 PM

Posted By ronmar on 29 May 2017 02:16 AM
Interwebs, same as everyone else

Mold spores are ready to spring to life as a growing colony if they are provided with three primary conditions:

A temperature range between 47-120 degrees F.
Nutrients (something to eat- organic matter like the cellulose in the dryall paper).
Moisture/Water.

Last i recall EPS foam is inorganic. It can however host mold living off of the nutrients in dust that has settled there, but removing that food source, and most importantly the moisture source should recitfy that problem without having to remove the foam...

Pulling general blurbs off the internet is not "data". I'm not sure what you mean by "everyone else" above but, only someone that has no idea what they are talking about would do that. We have many test standards that show how inorganic and organic matter are tested to determine levels of " fungi resistance". "Last I checked" foam is not zero. I'm conducted lab test now and there are plenty of inorganic matters that produce mold. Try again, this time show the "data" from the ICF manufactures fungi testing since foam can vary drastically from mfg-to.mfg since anything else is hersay?

So tell me, if it's not the foam causing black mold what is? Does your or anybody's plan prove the mold won't just grow again? Better yet, do you fully understand what "black mold" is and how it grows? Is it the problem here? There are 1000's of spores all with different characteristics, many in just the black mold family, so I have no idea how this goggle rule of thumb you want to apply works?

The fact of the matter is, fungi and bacteria (microbial science) is a complicated science NOBODY on the internet is going to be able to advise on by some cheap goggle search, they obviously cannot interpret the info correctly, or, even know where to look. It gets even more complicated in buildings, that's why we have a TON of industry publications, test and design standards, and professionals like PHDs @ ISIAQ, AIHA, EPA, HVI, ASHRAE, etc, etc, etc... many differing, debating still after decades. "Last I checked" ISIAQ has the latest white paper research the biggest findings in basements. These organizations are still trying to figure out cause and corrective actions standards, so, I have no idea how you did? To think it all boils down to goggle by the unqualified is ignorance.

Once the OP shows some interest in the thread, I'll post a corrective action plan that involves the right professionals. I can state this with a 100% accuracy, that plan won't come from free advice from a forum, that probably won't solve the issue, especially here or GBA.

One good piece of advice would be to vacate the premise immediately, especially if there are infants or elderly, or anyone known to have respiratory sensitivity or illness.. Here is a publication on that, not conclusive on humans "last I checked" there may be follow ons.

Start here, but, there is a whole lot more to it: http://www.knowthecause.com/downloads/Carey2012SatratoxinMonkeyOlfactoryNeurons.pdf

Foam is one of the leading causes in building's , it is not inert and non-reactive, further exasperated by what people don't understand they are mating to, ICF being one of the worse! Welcome to the ICF nightmare! Mycotoxins cannot be visually inspected so pulling drywall will be a waste of effort. Escalating can lead to the same.

A lot more data is needed before ALOT of $$$ is wasted, in the professional world it's called FRACAS: Any less, more ignorance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failure_reporting,_analysis,_and_corrective_action_system

"You need to cite better sources!!!".....here is a wikipedia article. haha

You know I knew it was too good to be true when he posted it...

Posted By PARAHOMES on 24 May 2017 05:25 PM
I’m done playing dumb with the peanut gallery.

I come here because I like the conversations(typically) and enjoy trying to help people(I think that is good for the soul). I wonder why Parahomes comes here, because I cannot recall a single instance where he just put up usefull information without attacking someone else...

I do feel sorry for you Para as that is a sign of a ill soul, and continuing to do this is not doing you any good.

With that, I am going to go away for a while as I really do have better things to do with my time than exchange quips with an ass who wears a hat and lives for the conflict.

To the OP: Mirage, I am sorry I drug this off topic and I wish you well in resolving your water problem, as that is what it is. Mold spores are found virtually everywhere in nature. You most likley have them on YOU as you read this, as do I as I type it. Your foam will survive being cleaned far better than drywall IMO. Regardless of what you decide, if you don't remove the moisture you will have mold again as the spores are always there waiting... Good luck.

To anyone else who reads this I am also sorry and my advice to you is to not engage Para at all(don't feed the troll) as that is the ONLY reason he appears to be here, as he cannot act like this face to face and keep people around(or from assaulting him I think:)). My best to you all...

Ron

I had good results with using a dehumidifier and putting some significant effort into channeling surface water away from the house (grade level, on the outside). Polyethylene sheets of plastic sloping away from the house to a trench, pea gravel, plastic drain pipe with a filter sock, etc.

If that didn't work and leaks were tied to come specific cracks, I'd consider digging down on the outside and sealing, adding vertical drainage, bentonite, etc.

Posted By ICFBdr on 29 May 2017 03:15 PM

Posted By PARAHOMES on 29 May 2017 12:07 PM

Posted By ronmar on 29 May 2017 02:16 AM
Interwebs, same as everyone else

Mold spores are ready to spring to life as a growing colony if they are provided with three primary conditions:

A temperature range between 47-120 degrees F.
Nutrients (something to eat- organic matter like the cellulose in the dryall paper).
Moisture/Water.

Last i recall EPS foam is inorganic. It can however host mold living off of the nutrients in dust that has settled there, but removing that food source, and most importantly the moisture source should recitfy that problem without having to remove the foam...

Pulling general blurbs off the internet is not "data". I'm not sure what you mean by "everyone else" above but, only someone that has no idea what they are talking about would do that. We have many test standards that show how inorganic and organic matter are tested to determine levels of " fungi resistance". "Last I checked" foam is not zero. I'm conducted lab test now and there are plenty of inorganic matters that produce mold. Try again, this time show the "data" from the ICF manufactures fungi testing since foam can vary drastically from mfg-to.mfg since anything else is hersay?

So tell me, if it's not the foam causing black mold what is? Does your or anybody's plan prove the mold won't just grow again? Better yet, do you fully understand what "black mold" is and how it grows? Is it the problem here? There are 1000's of spores all with different characteristics, many in just the black mold family, so I have no idea how this goggle rule of thumb you want to apply works?

The fact of the matter is, fungi and bacteria (microbial science) is a complicated science NOBODY on the internet is going to be able to advise on by some cheap goggle search, they obviously cannot interpret the info correctly, or, even know where to look. It gets even more complicated in buildings, that's why we have a TON of industry publications, test and design standards, and professionals like PHDs @ ISIAQ, AIHA, EPA, HVI, ASHRAE, etc, etc, etc... many differing, debating still after decades. "Last I checked" ISIAQ has the latest white paper research the biggest findings in basements. These organizations are still trying to figure out cause and corrective actions standards, so, I have no idea how you did? To think it all boils down to goggle by the unqualified is ignorance.

Once the OP shows some interest in the thread, I'll post a corrective action plan that involves the right professionals. I can state this with a 100% accuracy, that plan won't come from free advice from a forum, that probably won't solve the issue, especially here or GBA.

One good piece of advice would be to vacate the premise immediately, especially if there are infants or elderly, or anyone known to have respiratory sensitivity or illness.. Here is a publication on that, not conclusive on humans "last I checked" there may be follow ons.

Start here, but, there is a whole lot more to it: http://www.knowthecause.com/downloads/Carey2012SatratoxinMonkeyOlfactoryNeurons.pdf

Foam is one of the leading causes in building's , it is not inert and non-reactive, further exasperated by what people don't understand they are mating to, ICF being one of the worse! Welcome to the ICF nightmare! Mycotoxins cannot be visually inspected so pulling drywall will be a waste of effort. Escalating can lead to the same.

A lot more data is needed before ALOT of $$$ is wasted, in the professional world it's called FRACAS: Any less, more ignorance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failure_reporting,_analysis,_and_corrective_action_system

"You need to cite better sources!!!".....here is a wikipedia article. haha

These sites crack me up! I'm convinced some like RONMAR & DANA 1 got to be retired, wife kicked them out, with massive post counts spreading bad advice, nothing better to do than come out acting as Building Scientist, Structures Engineers (last thread I called RONMAR out on being way off to the op with life threatening info had they listened), now on this thread, Building Micro-Biologist/Physicist, a VERY complicated science with a TON of industry degreed experienced professionals they can point but dont since it is a VERY specialized field that again, can cause serious health related issues, even death, if they give the wrong advice and someone is dumb enough to take it. Hilarious how these people think they don't need educations and experience especially in specialized science fields, all thats needed is goggle and wikipedia as if that replaces all the decades and money, sacrifices, others have spent becoming subject matter experts. If they tried getting in the door at any consulting company that asked where their experience is that qualifies them as such experts "on the internet" they get laughed at. On the internet, you can be what ever you want to be, no education, no experience needed, ruining the AEC industry. It's ridiculous, and you can bet I will call BS out despite alters egos and sales hype being crushed. It's easy to crush at that too. And in this case, I'm sure people in ICF homes or selling them won't like the facts I post, or in this case, the lack of manufactured specs and proven knowledge or lack of it they purchased a home with. It's high time someone calls these people out, since they are not offering "help" that only exist in their minds or wallets not backed by proven fact. I laugh at the personal attacks, that just shows you had nothing technically to come back with proving me accurate once again, thanks!

GBA gets away with it protected by site legal disclaimers removing them from liability from bad advice.  These people would NEVER offer advice outside their expertise if they were held legally accountable, or, their professional licenses and carreers

I am currently conducting fungi test in a lab and I do alot of whats discussed on these sites professional for over three decades, and for the most part I like most real pros dont offer advice I'm not qualified to, other than get with local pros where the industry needs to get back to and support, pros that can visit the building, and, everything I posted above is solid pointing to the proper standards, publications, organizations, that have the general data, however, in this case we need the specific test from the specific ICF manufacture to see if the foam is inert and chemically stable and how it will react with the specific mix of concrete in this case being the key mating material ) ie: core samples). We don't look at foam data anymore & the question was loaded, we look at the matted assembly. We also need to understand specific heat and humidity, O2, levels, and other data as a basis for a corrective action plan before lots of money is wasted and the health risk remains.

Straight out of one of the test stds,

Take note of 1. A. " or the assembled combination of same"

Take note who conducts the test and/or interprets the data, the test engineers (like me) does data acquisition in this case provides results to a microbiologist (I don't qualify here, no way!) that works with the engineer to write the Quality Test Report (QTR) by third party labs for publications or Data Sheets. That is what end users should look for on ICF manufactures sites. That is who should be looking at this mold growth, not some yahoos off the internet.

Testing component foam or any product means nothing when it is mated, and component analytical methods (further assemble level) that assume fungi inert are discouraged. We have general tables that we can qualify a material to by "analysis" but it is risky since it is complex especially when matted to another.




 The manufacturing processes can produce fungi prone materials so each manufactured product has to be tested, there is no general rules of acceptance.

There is also a slew of environmental conditions that need to be tested in a chamber or international conditions...

Also in the std are test for organic and synthetic materials, indirect attacks and the materials ability to produce or resist growth.

We purchase the fungi from a lab: https://www.atcc.org/en/Products/Cells_and_Microorganisms/Fungi_and_Yeast/Fungi_and_Yeast_Alphanumeric.aspx

Based on a designed intent by professionals then conduct the test according to standard procedures.

Here is the clean-up process,

> I wonder why Parahomes comes here

From the constant insults to greenbuildingadvisor, and all of its major contributors, I'm going to say he's been banned everywhere else, loves to hear himself talk, and needs a place to do it.

He's an insulting and rude person, probably with some Aspie issues affecting social skills. Don't let him run you off, he's just an annoying insect.

GBA sells and profits from foam sales. They are not a test lab that has data on foam enough to advise it's usage, nor do they understand the risk involved in it's many applications they promote. You won't find the info I posted above on GBA. Q&A has bad advice, the blogs many are written from others.

FOAM PRODUCTS ARE A HAZARDOUS RISK PEOPLE NEED TO BE AWARE OF. HERE IS YET ANOTHER THREAD WITH A INFANT INVOLVED: http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/5/aft/84543/afv/topic/afpgj/1/Default.aspx#155671

RONMAR take this idiot above with you that obviously has nothing to offer building science or could care less what the lack of it & bad advice is doing to peoples health. Surely another GBA implant. If you are coming out here to socialize or make cyber buddies that says it all. Try facebook.

ronmar, no need for a break. You provide a lot of good info here and it's appreciated. Someone must have gone off their meds.

I wonder why Parahomes comes here

A blowhard looking for an audience.

Ronmar, you are clearly a quality person and one of the best contributors on this forum. Please don't let a blowhard drive you away. Anyone with half a brain can see what a loser Parahomes is.

Ronmar, I have observed this many times. One person thinks he is not the problem yet many people point to that person as the problem. Happens at work as there is always that one guy. Para is that one guy. He works well with machines and objects not humans. If someone went to a local green building club and para showed up and said the things he said here and basically calls everyone a no nothing, I don't think he would be invited again or worse cause an altercation due to his rudeness. You can convey good scientific information without being a butthead about it. Every post I ever read from him is grating!