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Quikwall before pouring ICF cores?
Last Post 10 Oct 2018 03:45 PM by owkaye. 26 Replies. |
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owkaye
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Posts:19
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| 08 Oct 2018 04:37 PM |
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I was a contractor for 20+ years before switching careers so I have a wealth of practical hands-on experience, although not in the use of ICFs specifically. I'm planning to build a simple, single-story 30x40x9 foot rectangular house (slab on grade) using ICFs in south Mississippi. I am confident in my ability to install the blocks and steel correctly, and I intend to hire someone else with more experience than me to pump / vibrate / fill the cores. So here's my question:
What do you think about applying fiber-reinforced stucco mortar (QuikWall or its equivalent) on both sides of the blocks before pouring the cores?
Here's why I'm thinking that this might be a good idea:
I've installed plenty of QuikWall in my time, mostly on dry-stacked concrete block foundation walls. It has always produced a super-stiff wall structure that never seems to flex, crack or collapse -- not in my experience anyways.
In one case I built a 9' deep basement in a low lying area that floods every spring due to snow melt. In this location the soil gets completely saturated for weeks. This places tremendous hydraulic pressure on the basement walls, yet those walls have never cracked or moved at all. They stay unbelievably dry inside, too. And the block cores in this particular basement were filled with #4 rebar and concrete only at the corners and every 12' along the walls.
Therefore I am thinking that QuikWall or its equivalent, applied to both sides of a free-standing ICF block wall BEFORE the cores are poured, would pretty much eliminate any possibility of a blowout. And since the walls would be stiffened and strengthened long before the cores are poured, I would also expect to see almost no deflection during or after the pour, even if little or no bracing were used during the pour.
What are your thoughts on this approach? Have any of you actually done this? If so, what issues did you run into, and would you ever do it again?
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BrucePolycrete
Advanced Member
Posts:524
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| 08 Oct 2018 05:43 PM |
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Hi Owkaye,
Thanks for your interest in Insulated Concrete Forms. ICF technology these days has progressed to where blow-outs are not really an issue. When the do occur, they're almost always caused by human error on the part of the installer. Your idea of pre-applying a stucco finish has been used in some urban environments where building codes require a finish on the ICF surface but the space between the buildings is too tight for normal application. |
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owkaye
New Member
Posts:19
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| 08 Oct 2018 06:31 PM |
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Hi BrucePolycrete,
Thanks for the reply. It's not just the blowout issue I'm concerned about. I would also like to save money by building my own braces rather than buying or renting them, so naturally I would like to build as few as possible. The stiffer I can make the blocks before the pour, the fewer braces I might need ... or at least that's my current way of thinking.
I'm not sure I would need any braces after I've plastered both sides of the blocks with QuikWall. I can work from my Genie scissor lift both before and during the pour. |
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BrucePolycrete
Advanced Member
Posts:524
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| 08 Oct 2018 07:00 PM |
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That sounds like a bad idea. Without bracing, the wall will move around during the pour. Do not pour/pump concrete into an ICF wall without following the manufacturer's recommendations for bracing. Not only will you not get a straight wall, you may well get yourself killed. |
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sailawayrb
Veteran Member
Posts:2283
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| 08 Oct 2018 07:07 PM |
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I would be concerned that the pour would flex and shake the ICF enough to crack and damage your stucco. This is more likely to occur during the initial stage of the pour when the concrete is falling the full wall height into the ICF concrete cavity. I can't say for sure as we have never tried this.
Frankly, I would not be concerned about having any blowouts if you use any major ICF product these days. And even if you have a blowout, it’s not a big deal as you just let the concrete flow out, patch with some plywood and just keep pouring.
You will need braces. We pour ICF with steel braces made my Nudura which we highly recommend. You could use 2x4s and Zonts/Zuckles. |
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owkaye
New Member
Posts:19
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| 08 Oct 2018 09:14 PM |
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I just learned about BuildDeck forms. They seem like a great solution for building a monolithic concrete box when attached to the top of the walls. In this case the shoring inside of the structure will be substantial, which makes it an easy task to brace the walls at the same time. Hurricane and tornado resistance is one of the main reasons I'm planning to use ICF, so my idea about using QuikWall before the pour is rapidly becoming less and less interesting. |
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RickICCF
New Member
Posts:7
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| 08 Oct 2018 11:35 PM |
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Owkaye, Have you taken a look at a "gray block" ICF alternative to "white block" ICF? The concerns you have with blowouts and bracing don't exist with ICCF (insulated composite concrete forms). ICCF is made with 100% recycled EPS (EPS headed for the landfill) and Portland cement. They don't burn or melt, they don't flex or float when grouting, they are stout, strong block and don't require bracing like white block and blowouts are a thing of the past. ICCF walls consume less than half the required concrete grout of ICF walls(10" ICCF vs 10" w/ 6" flat core). ICCF has tremendous "tooth" to grip Quikwall w/o lath. Save the Quikwall for finishing after grouting. Please do the research, make an informed decision. Look up The Perfect Block ICCF. |
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scottishjohn
Basic Member
Posts:109
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| 09 Oct 2018 07:37 AM |
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still researching formed concrete for my sub grade basement .spider ties--any one know of these
basically it appears to be just the formers separators you buy and you sheet with plywood with or without foam inclusion http://spidertiesystem.com/
looks a bit "mickey mouse"no email contact . full concrete walls and roof,which is tied with RE bar to the walls --your own hurricane bomb shelter and if looking for thermal mass --attach insulation to outside after concrete pour.looks like little bracing required,can even include vertical studs like a stick frame if you want
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owkaye
New Member
Posts:19
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| 09 Oct 2018 11:25 AM |
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Posted By RickICCF on 08 Oct 2018 11:35 PM
Owkaye, Have you taken a look at a "gray block" ICF alternative to "white block" ICF? The concerns you have with blowouts and bracing don't exist with ICCF (insulated composite concrete forms). ICCF is made with 100% recycled EPS (EPS headed for the landfill) and Portland cement. They don't burn or melt, they don't flex or float when grouting, they are stout, strong block and don't require bracing like white block and blowouts are a thing of the past. ICCF walls consume less than half the required concrete grout of ICF walls(10" ICCF vs 10" w/ 6" flat core). ICCF has tremendous "tooth" to grip Quikwall w/o lath. Save the Quikwall for finishing after grouting. Please do the research, make an informed decision. Look up The Perfect Block ICCF.
RickICCF, assuming they are approved by my local building code, I would seriously consider them if they were made near me, or if the manufacturer would discount them so their delivered price were competitive. But have yet to see an ICF manufacturer or distributor discount their products in order to become competitively priced in a new market, so it looks like these Perfect Blocks will not make it into my new home.
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owkaye
New Member
Posts:19
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| 09 Oct 2018 11:34 AM |
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Hi scottishjohn, I have zero interest in spider ties. I want ICFs so I can stack them myself -- and because they provide lots of insulation and a good substrate for stucco / plaster / etc. |
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scottishjohn
Basic Member
Posts:109
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| 09 Oct 2018 11:59 AM |
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just looks like a cheap DIY solution as the plywood used with them will be much stronger than the ICF forms .as well as a fraction of the price--but hey everybody does their own thing --just another way to get same result,looks like if you only pouring 4ft at a time then no racking needed --certainly will work for my basement-will use some studs and then can go right out of ground with no racking a lot cheaper than ICF forms + i can reuse the plywood in another part of the build ,but that why i,m posting maybe someone knows something i don,t about the system . |
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owkaye
New Member
Posts:19
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| 09 Oct 2018 12:59 PM |
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as well as a fraction of the price ... Price is nowhere near as important as other things to me, especially when ICF homes typically cost little more than stick-built homes while offering numerous ongoing benefits, not the least of which is energy savings. the plywood used with them will be much stronger than the ICF forms ... This conclusion depends entirely upon what kind of 'strength' you are referring to ... and since ICFs are stronger than necessary to contain the concrete that's to be poured into them, what's the point of any additional strength? One of my big reasons for going with ICFs is that installing them also installs all my wall insulation at the same time. After I install my ICFs I am DONE with the task of insulating my exterior walls! And these walls will be far better insulated than if I were to have built my home using any other method that's strong enough to resist hurricanes. Another reason why I like ICF forms is that there is no labor required to strip them after the concrete has cured. If you use spider ties you'll not only have to strip the plywood forms, but you will also have to install some kind of insulation onto the surface of your concrete walls after the forms are removed, unless you intend to leave them uninsulated of course. To me, the benefits of saving this labor -- coupled with the added expense of buying insulation and fasteners to install it -- far outweigh the potentially higher cost of ICFs. I cannot think of a wall forming and wall insulating method that's simpler or easier on the body than stacking lightweight styrofoam blocks. |
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scottishjohn
Basic Member
Posts:109
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| 09 Oct 2018 02:03 PM |
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please do not think i am an iCF hater ,but there are other ways of getting what you want and pretty sure cheaper for same final spec..If its DIY as it sounds then if you consider screwing plywood together as too much i would think again about going DIY
diy means it costs you nothing for your labour ,so i can see the attraction for a builder to use preformed units--diy --cost might be worth saving
I understand the concept that just throw a few blocks together and pour its really not as simple as that. do a true comparison of pricing of parts and you will see the cost difference
what type of area do you live in do you need heat mainly or air con
having concrete inside +insulation outside keeps building cooler longer ,to be honest it also works the same when its heating you need.
the idea the concrete in between foam is a thermal mass is flawed as the insulation will stop the concrete being heated -so it is not really a thermal mass in true sense --eg heat reservoir
check out some zero energy homes .
you say there is more labour ? --how you doing electrics =plumbing --lot of work cutting out foam --so you end strapping out inside -- so its ends up same as any other type to get service cavities,
special type of wiring to be fitted hard into foam ,as it degrades insulation over time if not --more cost
the idea that ICF formers are stronger than needed is nonsense --read any of makers instructions and they will tell you about blow outs and how you can only fill to certain level to stop this happening and you have to allow it to partially set before continuing--again I, m not saying they don,t do a good job ,but i get impression you need to study this a bit more and realize the pitfalls of any system . before being so convinced of one system superiority over another
I feel you have been brain washed a bit --they are no magic cure for hurricanes ,as the most probable damage would be roof lifting off any structure first. SIPS can be built ,no problem to withstand tornado,s hurricanes- look again a spider ties --that would be like bomb shelter with roof cast onto the walls in one piece --if you really that worried,not saying I would go that far ,thermal mass of house would be out of this world--like a cave .
I,m not trying denegrate your choice --but keep your options open ,thats all
and download some build manuals for your choosen ICF system |
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sailawayrb
Veteran Member
Posts:2283
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| 09 Oct 2018 03:02 PM |
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ICF is a great construction option...as are SIPs, CMU and 2x4 wood single/double walls. To be great, each has to be done properly. To get plumb and straight ICF walls you will need some kind of adjustable bracing...even for a 16” height wall... Zonts/Zuckles is a low cost way to brace if you can reuse the 2x4s.
Also, don’t under estimate how much work is involved with ICF. Stacking the blocks is the easy part. Bending, cutting and placing the horizontal and vertical rebar would always give me tennis elbow in both arms back when I use to do...but I am a girl... Placing and removing the bracing is labor intensive. Vibrating is hard work during the couple hour pour. Finishing work (e.g., electrical and plumbing) takes more time with ICF. |
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owkaye
New Member
Posts:19
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| 09 Oct 2018 03:14 PM |
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there are other ways of getting what you want and pretty sure cheaper for same final spec
Like I said, cheaper is not my only goal. I'm 62 years old and finding it much more difficult to handle 4x8 sheet goods than in my earlier years as a contractor. This is one reason why ICFs appeal to me.
If its DIY as it sounds ... As I explained in my first post, I will be doing most of the labor myself, so yes this is primarily a DIY project.
... then if you consider screwing plywood together as too much i would think again about going DIY I think your goals are VERY different from mine, and you seem to be replacing MY goals with YOUR in your arguments. This is why much of what you are saying is worthless to me. I do not intend to use the method you think is best for YOUR situation. Instead I plan to use the method that fits MY situation best.
diy means it costs you nothing for your labour Wrong. DIY costs me TIME ... and wear and tear on my body, which I would like to reduce as much as possible. This is only one of several reasons why ICFs appeal to me.
I understand the concept that just throw a few blocks together and pour its really not as simple as that. As I said earlier, I was a contractor for more than two decades, so I have a very clear idea of what it takes to install ICF forms.
What type of area do you live in I already said I live in south Mississippi in my first post. Did you read any of my previous posts?
Do you need heat mainly or air con Mainly aircon.
Having concrete inside + insulation outside keeps building cooler longer, to be honest it also works the same when its heating you need. This doesn't matter to me because it's the same 5 inches of EPS either way, and I don't really care if the thermal mass is inside, sandwiched, or outside the insulation -- because IN FACT any home in this area with 5 inches of EPS insulation and solid concrete walls is going to be 100 times better than the house I've been living in for the past 8+ years. My energy goal is not to get the absolute lowest energy cost. Instead my goal is to dramatically reduce my current energy costs while living in a solid concrete home. And I'm certain that ICF construction will do this for me.
You say there is more labour? How you doing electrics / plumbing Wiring inside conduit inside the poured concrete walls, and plumbing below the slab, in the space between the concrete slab roof and the drop ceiling, and in the interior walls.
The idea that ICF formers are stronger than needed is nonsense --read any of makers instructions and they will tell you about blow outs and how you can only fill to certain level to stop this happening and you have to allow it to partially set before continuing I'm not doing the pour/fill, I'm hiring that part out, so it's their responsibility to deal with blowouts if any.
I get impression you need to study this a bit more and realize the pitfalls of any system . And I get the impression that you never read all my posts in this thread, nor do you recognize my decades of construction experience, nor do you have the ability to appreciate MY goals in this project rather than your own.
before being so convinced of one system superiority over another I feel you have been brain washed a bit Okay then, since you're apparently smarter than me about all this stuff, I invite you to describe a solution that's better FOR ME (not for you) than ICFs.
they are no magic cure for hurricanes as the most probable damage would be roof lifting off any structure first. Might this be the reason why I intend to build a monolithic concrete box??? |
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owkaye
New Member
Posts:19
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| 09 Oct 2018 03:37 PM |
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ICF is a great construction option...as are SIPs, CMU and 2x4 wood single/double walls. SIPs and 2x4 are completely out of the question because I want solid concrete walls and roof for reliable tornado and hurricane protection. That leaves ICF and CMU. Which of these will put less stress on my 62 year old body?
Finishing work (e.g., electrical and plumbing) takes more time with ICF. I've never considered rough electrical and plumbing to be "finishing work" ... or are you referring to the installation of fixtures? Either way I believe that rough plumbing and electrical will be easier with ICFs than CMUs. Or am I missing something here, and if so, what? |
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scottishjohn
Basic Member
Posts:109
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| 09 Oct 2018 03:51 PM |
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I will not continue posting after this as you as have made statements that are totally wrong so you obviously have no real idea of what you are talking about.
do some reading --on how insulation and thermal mass actually works.
If air con is the main load then you want concrete inside the insulation --so the air con chills the concrete --
same goes for the roof insulation on outside of concrete slab --easy if its a flat roof
use your ICF,s by all means no problem --but you not finished there
to get what you want you need to add more insulation to outside than the 40- or 60mm of polystyrene in the former
5" of pir foam is about the max you would use on any structure as more than that the cost out weighs any insulation gain --but pir foam is nearly twice as good as polystyrene --so that would mean 10"of that to give max insulation possible
you decide where the trade of is --maybe look at values of a thicker ICF former against extra cost -
don,t take my word for it do the maths look at "u" values for different types of insulation
for this you will need a heat recovery ventilation system because if built like a bunker there will be no air leakage --so just pumping hot air in from outside makes no sense you want the cold air going out to transfer that cold to the incoming air without having to cool it again .
a good heat recovery system will save 90%+of your heat or cold air in your case
I did not read all your posts just from where you said you had no interest in "spiderties"--fine --it was not directed at you personally
I did cover all your points near enough though
you are trying to build a cave that does not change temp very quickly --fine ,then concrete inside ,insulation outside --END OF
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sailawayrb
Veteran Member
Posts:2283
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| 09 Oct 2018 04:12 PM |
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You will need to hot knife channels for the electrical and plumbing which takes more time then just drilling holes in the 2x studs...not a huge amount of time mind you, but a consideration. Folks who do CMU often build an interior double wall using 2x4s. |
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| Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do! |
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owkaye
New Member
Posts:19
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| 09 Oct 2018 05:48 PM |
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I will not continue posting after this ...
Thank you, I appreciate it very much! |
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owkaye
New Member
Posts:19
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| 09 Oct 2018 06:24 PM |
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do some reading on how insulation and thermal mass actually works. I already understand it, and here's a news flash for you:
I DO NOT CARE ABOUT THERMAL MASS!
Quite a shocker to hear me say this, right? Yet it's true.
If I end up with ANY thermal mass benefits from my ICF concrete walls, that's more than enough for me. Therefore your arguments about trying to get MORE or MAXIMUM thermal mass effect -- by putting all my insulation on the outside -- is something I absolutely do not care about.
Are you beginning to understand that my goals and priorities are far different from yours? Or are you still stuck on trying to teach me or convince me of something that I do not care about?
If air con is the main load then you want concrete inside the insulation --so the air con chills the concrete -- same goes for the roof insulation on outside of concrete slab ... I understand your concept, and maybe this is what YOU want. But like I said before, this is YOUR goal, not mine.
I honestly do not care if the 5 inches of styrofoam insulation is inside my concrete walls/roof, or outside, or both -- because I am absolutely NOT trying to maximize my thermal mass inside the building envelope!
I did not read all your posts ... Obviously.
You are trying to build a cave that does not change temp very quickly No, I'm trying to build a cave that won't sustain much damage in a tornado or hurricane. If my chosen building method happens to slow down my temperature change that's great. And if it doesn't that's great too. Because either way I end up with the house I want -- a solid monolithic concrete box that's practically impervious to storms, and has 5 more inches of insulation than the 90 year old house I'm currently living in. |
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