Now, that is funny!

I didn't mean to imply that, just wanted to address the "capitalism will solve everything" nonesense.


No. People buy them becuase there isn't any other choice, and their real estate agent hypes up how the extra Square footage will increase their value. Just drive around and look a mid priced homes, look at the parade of homes - where is the choice? They are all the same house - regardless of where you are in the whole country! How does anyone know that this is what people want if it is all that is available?

No. I've augued this for years with builders, who claim the same thing. But now I have proof. Recently a local developer built a new-urbanism style development with higher quality, energy-star rated, tastefully designed smaller homes - and the development has been out-selling the local real estate market by 2-to-1. Given the choice people will chose a well designed "not tso big" house every time.

I appreciate the answers, and understand the position the SIP industry is in. Volume is everything, and we may have to wait another 25 years for SIPs to be truly cost competitive, when GP starts making them right in the OSB factory, selling them at $1.50/SF at home depot. The SIP companies can then move to the real value added business of fabricating panels, instead of making them - which they clearly are not very efficient at.

The blower door test exemption only saves $400. The presciptive method seems somewhat useless, the structural numbers are half as good as most ICC SIP tests. Because the precriptive method reduces the allowable strength, more structural studs will be needed, reducing the value of the SIPs compared to stick framing.

I'd love to beleive it. It think its possible. Has anyone done any real studys? I'd like to see a survey of customers across the industry, not a PATH study planned out by a dozen experts - that is not representitive of market reality. So far in my local survey of customers, I've not seen any labor savings. Small sample. I'd love to see a real survey, not just optimistic sales jobs.

Business in Colorado must be in the dumper. I f the housing market is growing, then there is no reason a SIP manufacturer can't make some $$$$. Give me three good framing crews and "I will compete with any home builder." Better, stronger, faster and more cost effective period.

No doubt people prefer BETTER anything, but MY point was that it isn't some conspiracy that builders are so CONSERVATIVE.

Business people... especially it seems in housing construction... are VERY risk averse. The ones that make a decent profit enjoy that stability and lack of effort when there are so many lemmings. The vast majority of consumers are followers and do not like to get out of step. The builders are businessmen that fear risk.

I have a personal taste for things modern in style and modest in size... and I wouldn't mind if someone super efficient like a Pulte would build something like that... but they don't and won't. Why? Because they know the vast majority of buyers will not stand in line... because American consumers (for the most part) do not feel much of any 'heat'/pressure to comprehend conservation. Look at what Americans drive today! The effort they put into trying to SELL what is sound long term logic is not worth it in their mind. It's sad, for sure, but you can't blame them when there are so many blind followers in this country.

Finding a good builder/architect/residential designer/GC to build a modest, efficient dream abode is NOT rocket science, yet the vast majority of consumers are too damn lazy and content with the status quo to give a hoot or attempt to do such work. There is so much out there, but short of GCing the house for my siblings and friends... they could care less to resist the McMansion and look elsewhere themselves... and put in some elbow grease to find it.

IF their was a stronger presence of consumers willing to go that route... our residential business people wouldn't be so risk averse. It should go both ways... that's all I'm saying.

One wrong business case and a builder can go bankrupt. One wrong house choice and... and the consumer just pays a few bucks more a month for utilities or gets an average, boring house. That's the difference. I have grand notions of building modern, efficient, and modest homes one day, too, but I know it won't be that easy of a sell. Why? Because so many consumers are so ignorant... and the effort to SELL/EDUCATE them on conservation and such is difficult when most can't even see that driving a 15mpg vehicle is a trifle wasteful.

Oops. fat fingered post. ignore.

Uncle, I am personally the type of person whom wants and offers people the biggest bang for their buck. When you can offer a 2500-3000 SF home for the cost and operation of a 2000-2500 SF home, why not. We supply and build homes for Community Development and Habitat for Humanity in 4 counties for cost of stick building. We offer structures to families from $65k to $650k and everything in between. I feel your pain. If someone wants a half million dollar house, why not?

SIPGUYNC,

I applaud your varied product selection and work with HfH. I really have no trouble with people buying what they want with their money. To each his own is my mantra. The only thing I request would be for man (especially in rich societies like USA) to take a second and ask themselves if they really NEED it.

Sure luxury is nice and many would love to enjoy the various pleasures, but at some point our world is limited in resources and there are more generations to come after us. It's a case of comfort and excess to me, I suppose. While I'd like to think people can understand the idea of conservation, I am not foolish enough to think people in general will do the right thing voluntarily. Given the opportunity, people will prefer to live large. I'm no different. I wish our government would mandate conservation more, but that is too political for this forum. It's a tough argument in a capitalistic and "free" society. Although one could argue that people should not be "free" to waste.

I guess I'm just jealous. Seriously though... every year my dream house project is delayed... the design shrinks in scope. I guess it's a result of having (2) young kids (i.e. I wonder what is left for them when they are older.).

Back on topic...

I truly think if their are products that exhibit obvious long term benefits for society and the consumer (like SIPs), the only way to nurture growth is to mandate it. Not SIP specifically, but instill regulations that require scientific measurement of real data... POST assembly. With more stringent and specific measures, society and consumers can sort through the data and the BS to select wisely.

Example: Even though a batt insulation is rated as R-XX, it is only as good as the finished SYSTEM's performance, but yet no building code or testing is mandated to meet or achieve any such notions of insulation or leakage or whatever.

I work in the auto industry and we test and measure and validate throughout the process... from design to finish assembly... the various functions the product (car) is marketed with. A $100k+ house should be no different. Cars must withstand this crash test or this level of rust prevention or this acceleration or this quietness. Every component that goes into the system to impart that performance is tested and measured and validate along the way. And what of homes? Phsssh. I'm not as educated and experienced as some of you, but my education in the last 10 years in preparation for my dream house tells me it is a JOKE how homes are built today. Only the most craftsman-like or innovative output a product (house) that is up to snuff, but you guys are far and few between. And at the end there is rarely any testing to validate your work. Mandated at least.

I chose to go SIP, because my research and gut engineering feel tells me the product has a better chance of being a superior product of efficiency both in labor and thermally than stick. I, too, wish it was "cheaper", but then I'm not forgetting the hurdles it has compared to such an entrenched product - stick construction.

Capitalism doesn't solve everything and I didn't either write that or imply that.  Your Chinese example is bunk.  What is "fair" and what something is "worth" is very relative.  You may know that the doodad costs only $.02 to make and therefore are only willing to pay $.15 for it but if everyone else is paying $2.50 for it than the retailer will tell you to have a nice day and you will be left without the doodad.  Is it "fair" to pay $20,000,000 for house?  How about a painting?  What is a "fair" profit mark-up?  10%?, 20%?  These questions ALWAYS get worked out in the market.  If people were not able or willing to buy something based on price than that product/service will either go away or the price will come down. 
If the microsoft product was not "good enough" (that is what I wrote-different that "good") then another product would be introduced and sold.
Besides, the building industry is not the computer industry.  If I offered SIPs at the same cost as stick, Stick would either have to lower its price or go away.  SIPs are better, only priced too expensive (at this point) to justify the up charge.

Didn't we win the cold war against communism? Bureacracies might help the plight for SIPs, but consumers will pay in the long run. Another level of testing and further intrusion into the building industry will cost more then it is worth I am afraid. I already have to wait over four months just to get a water tap. How much in interest will go by while I wait for the guy to get a work order to come by and run a blower test or run a scan? And how is the cost ultimately justifed? On the other hand, if we made utility bills public, perhaps people could quickly see which builders are providing a superior product!

Capitalism is a funny animal when you consider the tradeoffs of what provides bang for the buck and future value. I am not sure we can overcome how we are hard wired even after education. My guess is that granite counter tops will always have more appeal then foam walls. But compiling data and showcasing successes might be a step in the right direction.

Aren't we all comparing to the wrong things here.  SIPS vs. Stick and batt....  SIPs has the advantage!  Let's see studies of 6.5" SIPS vs. 6" Stick with caulked seams and urethane spray foam walls.  That is the comparison I want to see.  I just finished a Energy Star rated home and did it with urethane spray and caulked seams at a price cheaper than the 85,000 price tag of SIPS quoted for my appx. 5700 SF of walls.

Aren't we all comparing to the wrong things here.  SIPS vs. Stick and batt....  SIPs has the advantage!  Let's see studies of 6.5" SIPS vs. 6" Stick with caulked seams and urethane spray foam walls.  That is the comparison I want to see.  I just finished a Energy Star rated home and did it with urethane spray and caulked seams at a price cheaper than the 85,000 price tag of SIPS quoted for my appx. 5700 SF of walls.

Wow! $85k! Let me see . . . 85,000 / 5700 = . . . carry the 1 . . . an average of $14.91 / SF. Maybe you should buy your sips from Jeff Harvey at PanelwerxSIPS for $3.95 / SF? ;)

Dick Mills

they have sip for 3.95? wow ,nice. is it per wall skf or living space?

jeff quoted 90000+ but with floor system. I can get the engineered floor for 7843 from the lumber yard I use (their quoted cost). So.... not the best price I have received.

Any other rebuttles? I'd like to try it, but the cost.. Holy cow! As I said earlier, any options for SIPS that is CHEAPER than the 6" stick wall with caulked seams and spray urethane?

P.S. I have MANY quotes. Like I said, I'd like to use it, but cost...

Have you checked out Ameripanel http://www.ameripanel.com/ ? I know nothing about them except what they say on their website, but others have suggested that their prices might be a bit high. But, they appear to have dry-in shell models on their website that range down to as low as $20/sf of living space. I haven't done the math to see what their panel square foot price might be. They also appear to offer options which don't include their engineered flooring.

If you are looking for raw panels, http://www.sipsproducts.com/price/ might be of benefit. But, again, I know nothing about them other than what is on their websites. They do have loand and span tables as well.

Dick Mills

Ok, how much is the spray foam? I know that it isn't cheap.

And for your original 5,700 sq ft of walls? I'd guestimate: 5,700 x $6 = $34,200 + shipping and installation materials. So, I'm not sure why your other bids were so high?

JC,

What do you get for $6/SF? Is that for 5 5/8 EPS foam? Does it include the dimensional lumber for splines? And are the door and window openings cut out? Are they 4x8 panels or ???

Sorry for all of the questions, I am just very inquisitive.

Dick Mills