Posted By BadAttitude on 20 Mar 2011 03:51 PM

. Ventilation was never an issue that we were warned about with the use of SIP's by the timber frame manufacturer/designer.

BA;

a little puzzling why they would warn you and then use the product? I wonder if the lifetime warranty only applied to the frame? Unfortunately you are in for a fight, the finger pointing has begun.


from Hearthstone's website: "The frame is then covered in various ways, but most commonly with a blanket of extremely energy efficient structural insulated panels (SIPs). SIP’s in-and-of themselves are a tremendous building product — featuring supreme energy efficiency and strength"

If you could give us more detail about the sagging, type of panels, length of panels, thickness of panels, type of splines, your climate, etc some of us here may be able to diagnose the issue and determine if it is a manufacturing defect, installation defect, engineering defect or a combination thereof. For instance, if the panels were obviously overspanned and an engineer or architect certified the design, then fault can be assigned to the architect or engineer. If they are not overspanned, but say the contractor left out the specified attachment splines during installation then fault can be assigned to the contractor and so on. All things being equal, a material defect is the least likely, but...

Posted By SimonD on 20 Mar 2011 04:42 PM
If you could give us more detail about the sagging, type of panels, length of panels, thickness of panels, type of splines, your climate, etc some of us here may be able to diagnose the issue and determine if it is a manufacturing defect, installation defect, engineering defect or a combination thereof. For instance, if the panels were obviously overspanned and an engineer or architect certified the design, then fault can be assigned to the architect or engineer. If they are not overspanned, but say the contractor left out the specified attachment splines during installation then fault can be assigned to the contractor and so on. All things being equal, a material defect is the least likely, but...

Since Hearthstone did the design, purchased the panels, and was responsible for the erection and installation, plus roofing, who would you blame?
The panels were 4' x 10', and I believe they used 2X6 lumber for the "splines". glued and screwed together.  Our climate is quite hot, in June, July & August.....last year we had over 90 days over 90 degrees, with high humidity.  Problem areas were on Southern exposure with gray/brown roof asphalt shingles.  Shingles "humped" at the spline locations.  No evidence of moisture from above or below the panels.

Do the panels sag along their length or across their width or both? Does that whole section of roof sag or just a few panels in that section? Is that section of roof vaulted or does it have flat ceiling? What is the function of the room underneath? (Hope it's not a sauna:-)

Oh yeah, was the interior skin of the panel OSB like the topside or just Drywall?

Posted By SimonD on 20 Mar 2011 10:53 PM
Do the panels sag along their length or across their width or both? Does that whole section of roof sag or just a few panels in that section? Is that section of roof vaulted or does it have flat ceiling? What is the function of the room underneath? (Hope it's not a sauna:-)

Oh yeah, was the interior skin of the panel OSB like the topside or just Drywall?

Great questions!

One wing is office space, one wing is master bath for two old farts (shower and a tub used about 6 times in 11 years).

Sagging appears across the length, all panels in the span of about 8'.  Ceilings are vaulted, with drywall bonded to the ceiling side osb (by panel manufacturer).   Office wing and master bath wings have similar sags.

Did Santa park his heavy sleigh on the roof?    The sag is so much that Ray Charles could see it from the ground.  Now does anyone have any ideas what caused this?   Just guessing, but it looks like the panels are no longer acting as a composite beam to support the span.  Maybe some of the experienced SIP installers have seen this kind of problem before.

Destructive testing is needed by an independent 3rd party inspector, it is hard to determine just from the photo, could be rot, delamination due to - overspanning.  You really need to get under a section of shingles and really see what is happening underneath

Badattitude,
A couple questions, if you don't mind.
These panels use 2x6 splines? You mention they are 4x10 and that their span is 8', correct?
Have you, or anyone, actually walked around on the roof since you discovered the sag?
Where, exactly, are you located, and have you experienced any unusual snow or ice loading recently?
Does the sag occur over the ENTIRE area covered in SIPS?

couple questions, if you don't mind.
These panels use 2x6 splines? You mention they are 4x10 and that their span is 8', correct?
Have you, or anyone, actually walked around on the roof since you discovered the sag?
Where, exactly, are you located, and have you experienced any unusual snow or ice loading recently?
Does the sag occur over the ENTIRE area covered in SIPS?

Yes, 2X6 splines, 4'X10', with a span of no more than 8'. Yes, a walk around on the roof displays no bounce or weakness. We are located near Knoxville, TN. No snow or ice to speak of. No Ice damming. Just really hot, humid summers. See picture above for sagging detail. You can see support beam where there is no sagging, then immediately above and below the beam the panels start to sag.  The picture is taken above an office area of our home.

from the picture it could be delaminated.    "evidence of code violations.”  .......... probably means the finger it pointed at you 

If your conract is with Hearthstone Homes, then that is who you need to pursue. If ou han not already, I would put them on notice in writing Certified Mail -Return Receipt and give them 10 days to respond in writing or you will take appropriate legal action.

Posted By cmkavala on 23 Mar 2011 03:23 PM
from the picture it could be delaminated.    "evidence of code violations.”  .......... probably means the finger it pointed at you 

If your conract is with Hearthstone Homes, then that is who you need to pursue. If ou han not already, I would put them on notice in writing Certified Mail -Return Receipt and give them 10 days to respond in writing or you will take appropriate legal action.

Funny.  At the time you posted this I was @ the Post Office, sending a certified, return requested letter.  Guess to whom?

I checked yesterday with a straight edge against the ceiling.  From the beam to the lower support, the bow total  is 3" for a span of 8 feet !!!

I appreciate all the comments.

My comment would be  BEWARE !  Winter's warranty is only 10 years!   They are having (or have had) bankrupcy problems.  Who's next?

What Type of panels are they? Polyurethane or polystyrene. Curious

Posted By rossborel on 24 Mar 2011 06:29 PM
What Type of panels are they? Polyurethane or polystyrene. Curious

 expanded polystyrene

Posted By BadAttitude on 21 Mar 2011 12:59 PM

 with drywall bonded to the ceiling side osb (by panel manufacturer).  

BadAttitude;

When I look at their website they show curtain wall panels, are you sure there is OSB under the drywall? or is the drywall just laminated to the EPS?

Ah ha! That was my last question Chris. I also went to Winter Panels website and looked at their specs and saw that they had an OSB top side/Drywall bottom side 'non structural' panel. BadAttitude said the drywall was already laminated to the bottom side of the panel from the factory, so maybe there is no OSB bottom skin, which would make a relatively weak panel.

Does Badattitude distinctly remember seeing the panels having an OSB lower skin under the drywall?

If not, that is your problem. Drywall is a weak material if contantly under tension in the presence of humidity. It will stretch which is called structural creep.

To test, take something like an ice pick and twist it through the surface of the drywall, if it bottoms out after 1/2" there is OSB underneath there, if it keeps going then not.

Definately OSB on both sides of the foam.  1/2" drywall bonded to OSB underside!

Well then, as Chris mentioned the panels have probably delaminated. For instance, if you took a 4x8 sheet of 7/16" OSB held horizontally and only supported it at it's ends, it would naturally sag about 3 inches under its own weight. The southern exposure of that section of roof has exasperated and exposed a manufacturing defect which is most likely delamination of the skin/skins from the core. Also, if the foam core is too low of a density it will shear away from the skin under repeated thermal contraction and expansion causing the same result.

SimonD,

I think your explanation is a very reasonable one that appears to fit the known facts.  However, I believe you meant to type  exacerbated instead of exasperated.   I do not believe you meant to assign an emotion to a section of the Southern roof.

Now do me a favor by looking at my postings from time to time to make sure that I type what I mean.