I have read 100s of posts here and they have been as informative as confusing. I will be building a single story modern shed roof style house about 2000 sq. ft.  I have been a builder for 25 years but only used OSB SIPs on one project. I really want to use the steel sips for this project. Labor in my area is scarce so the SIP system is appealing for that reason too.

I have a basic set of plans with elevations. Do any of the SIP dealers/ MFGs have in house engineering resources?

Thanks in advance

Drew

Structall Building Systems, Inc. a manufacturer located in Tampa, FL has inhouse engineering services. My company provides their design and engineering support.

You should mention where you're located because your engineered plans need to be sealed and engineers affiliated with panel companies are not all licensed in all 50 states.

Hopefully, you are located in the Southeast because there is a lot of activity with metal SIPs here and you will have more options, but if not, someone will still give you a direction to go in.

Thanks for the response Simon,

Unfortunately I'm about as far from the southeast as possible. Washington State to be exact. 98245 zip, on an Island. 25 Lbs snow load and 85 MPH wind requirements in this area. San Juan Islands.

I looked at your website and it looks like your are not licensed in WA State. IS there a way around that?

Thanks

Drew

Does your building department require sealed plans? Sometimes the smaller municipalities approach things is a simpler way.

Is there a local engineer you know or could approach to be the 'engineer of record'. This can be tricky if the engineer isn't openminded towards alternative building systems, but you get lucky sometimes.

I did a Steel SIP house in Moses Lake, WA back in 2000 with a different engineer, but he seemed to want extra structural supports, and over designed it in my opinion. Some engineers have trouble understanding the inherent strength that SIPs have.

Here is what the permit application states-- A structure that does not meet the prescriptive requirements of
the International Building or Residential Codes must be designed
by an Architect or Engineer licensed by the State of Washington.
Most commonly, structural calculations are required when a
building lacks adequate braced wall panels, has over height
studs, is constructed with posts and piers, does not have a direct
load path from the roof to the foundation, or has concrete
retaining walls over 5 feet in height and holding a surcharge.
 Please note that if the engineer or architect has determined
through calculation that specific methods of construction are
required, these requirements must be included on the full
size structural construction drawings (foundation and
framing plans). For other than minor work, plans containing
engineered design requirements must bear the seal of the
engineer or architect responsible for the plans or for the transfer
of the design requirements to the plans

If the design meets the "International building code prescriptive requirements" it seems that a state license is not required.

TBD knowing how the dept. operates.

Drew

Drew; I just sent a PM with info for an experienced steel SIP Engineer in Washington

Posted By SimonD on 30 Sep 2011 02:01 PM
Structall Building Systems, Inc. a manufacturer located in Tampa, FL has inhouse engineering services.

Simon; To my knowlege Larry was Structall's engineer (not in house). Since he died who is their engineer now?

Is Structall the gold standard? What about Permatherm? Looks very similar? So far Simon is the only one who has recommended a specific panel.

anyone else?

Thanks

Drew

Posted By Drew Reed on 01 Oct 2011 10:26 AM
Is Structall the gold standard? What about Permatherm? Looks very similar? So far Simon is the only one who has recommended a specific panel.

anyone else?

Thanks

Drew

Definitely not the gold standard, Simon used to recommend Gefco?

But, Permatherm or PFF are both reliable companies

Drew,

Here's the big picture. All metal SIPs started out being used in the commercial/industrial cold storage building arena of construction. Then someone said why not build houses like one builds walk-in coolers keeping interior temperatures separate from exterior temperatures in the most efficient, cost effective and durable way possible. The premise is simple, but the practice is a little more involved. Companies that supply metal SIPs are for the most part set up to handle commercial/industrial applications for their product and have done so successfully for many years. Residential construction with Metal SIPs is a 'gear change' that metal SIP manufacturers stuggle with because it involves a different level of complexity and a separate set of building regulations which their existing company infrastructure is not set up to handle. However, there are some progressive people and companies that are 'bridging the gap' and providing the extra infrastucture to process this somewhat-new use for metal SIPs. It takes companies like mine and Chris K's, in colaboration with openminded engineers to take a Metal SIP companies product and successfully apply it to the task of building a house. So, getting from point A, a metal SIP to point B, a finished house, can be confusing because it involves navigating a less travelled path of regulations and building techniques which we have taken the time to figure out.

Anyway, if you had to pin me down to one panel manufacturer and one panel as being the best, I would say Kingspan and their 'minor rib/shadowline' Steel SIP with PU core. But, it has the least support for residential contruction and costs the most too.:-)

Drew,

Based on what your permit application states you will need sealed plans from an architect or engineer if you want to use metal SIPs. They aren't prescriptively written into the code like wood framing and concrete block are.

Send your drawings to Structall and ask for a quote on Steel SIPs for your house. It will give you an idea of cost. What's good about Structall is they have thermally broken connecting channels to attach their panels, which you need to consider for your climate. If they want your business, they will locate an WA engineer to seal your plans. Companies are hungry these days and will go to extra lengths to make a sale.

Thanks both Chris and Simon for your input. I have contacted Structall and am waiting for an estimate. I think I spoke to Leroy?, The other panels look interesting too. I like the Kingspan, especially the Kingzip roof panel. My largest span with the 25# snow load here is tight at their max on their data sheet (15' 6"). If I hang drywall on the underside it may be less.

Thanks again, I'm sure I'll have more questions as I get into this

Drew

Here are the panel to panel joints for each of the Steel SIPs mentioned. The top one is Permatherm/Precision Foam Fabricators, the middle one is Structall Building Systems and the bottom one is Kingspan. In terms of joint design, the more 'geometry' in the joint, the stronger it will be. The longer a panel spans between supports, the more important the joint strength becomes.

Thanks

I did send plans to Structall about 2 weeks ago. I spoke to Leroy. Have not heard back yet even after a follow up email 2 days ago.

The profile section really does a good job showing the difference between panels.

Thanks

Drew

The stongest

Structall's looks good on paper , but in reality the joints have huge gaps with no foam to foam contact as shown in this photo from an install last year

Chris,

It looks like on your site (Marquis) that you are using permatherm. Do you sell them as well?

Thanks

Drew

Posted By Drew Reed on 05 Oct 2011 06:08 PM
Chris,

It looks like on your site (Marquis) that you are using permatherm. Do you sell them as well?

Thanks

Drew

Drew; We get our panels thru our affiliate www.SipSupplyInc.com who distributes several different panels, PermaTherm being one of them.

We quit using Structall in 2004 , for several reasons, quality control being one of them.

The practical matter is that when you have a rigid joint lock that snaps together like Structall's, you can't afford to have the foam cores bottom out before the sheet metal skins snap together so there is a tolerance there. Yes, there is a small gap between the foam interfaces which can be filled with spray foam.

Permatherms/Precision Foam Fabricators joint is very loose and the foam cores can bottom out and meet because the sheet metal is flexible and easily flexes out of the way because of it's flat profile. That makes the panel hard to seal and maintain it's weather-tightness especially on a roof condition where one panel will shear past another and break it's seal if you stand on the roof near the lock on longer spans.

Posted By SimonD on 06 Oct 2011 12:31 PM
The practical matter is that when you have a rigid joint lock that snaps together like Structall's, you can't afford to have the foam cores bottom out before the sheet metal skins snap together so there is a tolerance there. Yes, there is a small gap between the foam interfaces which can be filled with spray foam.

Permatherms joint is very loose and the foam cores can bottom out and meet because the sheet metal is flexible and easily flexes out of the way because of it's flat profile. That makes the panel hard to seal and maintain it's weather-tightness especially on a roof condition where one panel will shear past another and break it's seal if you stand on the roof near the lock.

Simon;

a. Stuctall's samples do show a bottomed out foam contact. But the actual manufactured product does not do that. Why is that?

b. You may want to be sure that that photo is actually not another manufacturer's bfore you reference PermaTherm

c. For legal implications you may want to retract the statement about foam shear while standing on the panel, it simply has never happenes.

d. the metal joint profile is not completely flat it is hemmed with a small curl on the inside.

e. What I can say about the Structall's joint with a great degree of certainty having installed many of their panels is; in a perfect world they perform fine, however being the panels are manufactured in vaccum bags ( a less than state of the art method) they are susceptable to many flaws such as: offset skins, resulting in under snapping and oversnapping of the joint. Joints foam to foam joints large enough to stick my pinky finger into

f. To my knowlege spraying foam into the snap n lock joint is not recommended for their system