MGO SIP Roof System
Last Post 14 Sep 2018 08:13 PM by Innova. 37 Replies.
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01 Dec 2016 08:26 AM
Sherwin-Williams Uniflex Roof system applied over Innova R-50 MGO SIP roof panels. 10 and 15 year manufacturers warranty on roof system over Innova MGO SIP Panels. InnovaPanels are product approved for all wind zones in Florida. javascript:amaf_insertHTML('');amaf_toggleInline(5770,24560,0); javascript:amaf_insertHTML('');amaf_toggleInline(5771,24560,0);

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01 Dec 2016 08:50 AM
Sherwin Williams Uniflex Roofing system over Innova MGO SIP R50 roof panels. Applications approved for Flat and sloped roofs. javascript:amaf_insertHTML('');amaf_toggleInline(5774,24560,0); javascript:amaf_insertHTML('');amaf_toggleInline(5775,24560,0); javascript:amaf_insertHTML('');amaf_toggleInline(5776,24560,0);

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01 Jun 2017 10:04 AM
Thanks for sharing


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03 Aug 2017 02:17 AM
after 45 minutes on the phone with North East UnifLex Rep, they said they do not provide warranty for any of these cases: -residential work -jobs under 5000 sq ft - sloped roof Perhaps the Rep you work with in your region has different info and need to share that with the rest of the reps. I wanted to get mgo sips for my 12x4 roof slope and I was told uniflex wont work.


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19 Nov 2017 03:21 AM
Where can I find more information on MGO Sip roofing materials?

I read in a blog that nails are not recommended on wall connections, use screws.................assuming same goes for roofs (no nails).

This leaves out nailing on shingles on a let's say 12/12 pitch, right?

Sort of leaves some metal roofing as an option I suppose.

Will eave and valley protection like a "Ice + Water Shield" adhere to the MGO surface?

What sort of underlayments can be used (roofing felt - adhesive-backed underlayment membranes)?

How does one prep the MGO in order to attach products to properly, and so that roofing warranties will be honored?

I saw on one website where they were selling samples, I've never paid for a sample in 30 years. I'd like to monkey around with this stuff and do some testing myself. Anyone know of a company willing to mail free samples?





George (Architect)
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19 Nov 2017 12:22 PM
Posted By kach22i on 19 Nov 2017 03:21 AM
Where can I find more information on MGO Sip roofing materials?

I read in a blog that nails are not recommended on wall connections, use screws.................assuming same goes for roofs (no nails).

This leaves out nailing on shingles on a let's say 12/12 pitch, right?

Sort of leaves some metal roofing as an option I suppose.

Will eave and valley protection like a "Ice + Water Shield" adhere to the MGO surface?

What sort of underlayments can be used (roofing felt - adhesive-backed underlayment membranes)?

How does one prep the MGO in order to attach products to properly, and so that roofing warranties will be honored?

I saw on one website where they were selling samples, I've never paid for a sample in 30 years. I'd like to monkey around with this stuff and do some testing myself. Anyone know of a company willing to mail free samples?







kach22i,
MGO is usually limited to 12ft lengths @ a 12/12 pitch would only yield a 8ft horizontal span and would require beam or wall supports every 8ft.


Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
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19 Nov 2017 03:23 PM
To Clarify; The topic I'm currently concerned with is the possible adherence and warranty issues of self-stick roofing membranes used as underlayments on pitched roofs, and the possible mechanical fastening issues of using only screws. 

In this scenario one cannot even nail on a metal drip edge or bent metal wall to roof flashing without the pan head or button head screws sticking up.  I mention these two screws because self tapping cement board screws I've seen recommended that sit flush (like a wood screw) may not work on thin metals without some kind of pre-punch or divot maker. 

I'm inventing solutions as I type because I have yet to see published information on this type of roofing system.  Furthermore how can a building inspector review and approve the construction without standards, familiarity and being introduced to it with some literature?

I'll describe a situation I started out with in more detail so that distractions into other areas will be less likely.

Cathedral Ceiling.........................................................................

12" thick MGO Sip's 4'W x 10'L with (1 or more) 2x12 at seams
Roof pitch 12/12
Timber frame roof trusses at 5'-0" O.C. simple span

Panels to be laid long length horizontally over the timber frame trusses, with staggered vertical joints.

The embedded 2x12's at the seams may act as internal purlins.

More problems using MGO Sip's on a cathedral ceiling?

Those built-in purlins could be bonus in some situations despite their thermal bridging problems, but don't the 2x12's get attached to the edge of the MGO skin with screws every 6-inches?  Doesn't this mean I will be up on a scaffold working over my head putting screws in while another guy is on the roof doing the same from the other side?  And where the panel joint lays on the timber truss I cannot get to the inside so will have to use screws over a foot long six inches on center each side of the joint going up the seam, right?

The internal shim strip and glue together seams of more conventional OSB SIP's are looking like they have many advantages right about now. 

My arms are aching just thinking about all of those screws at six inches on center.

Maybe there are MGO structural insulated panel manufacturers out there that ditch the 2X's at the joints because their mix acts more like wood and less like cement board. 

Are there any MGO SIPS using shim and glue joints/seams?

This post has all been about cathedral ceilings, don't get me started on the mystery of how to nail a brick tie to the wall for brick veneer.  And what of all the base flashing details depending on self-stick or elastomeric flashings, how do we secure them to MGO skins?

I'm just not seeing the building development files and information on this product so that I can design and build with it properly.

Can somebody mail me some samples so that I experiment with it?

I want to use this product, the promise of it is intriguing.  And the fact that it's been use all over the world for decades excites me terribly.  So I have to know, just how they have been using it, and the details behind all those pretty pictures I see on-line.

Help me.

EDIT:

Opening Post Quote...................................................
10-15 year roof tape warranty.................

FYI: 25 years is an industry standard.

My wife has hidden away cans of pumpkin pie filling in the back our kitchen wall cabinets longer than 10 years.  And yes I threw them out once I discovered them. 

 





 

 




George (Architect)
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19 Nov 2017 08:35 PM
UPDATE

I did find one panel maker claiming peel and stick damproofing work with their foundation walls.

http://www.mag-pro.com/residential-applications-magpro/

I also have considered that maybe some of the roof systems may not require the 2X end inserts of the load bearing wall systems. However I have yet to find supporting documentation for this possiblity.


George (Architect)
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20 Nov 2017 01:17 PM
Innova Eco Building Systems located in Miami Florida manufactures MGO SIP wall, floor and roof panels up to 4' x 20' long. We also manufacture plywood / MGO and OSB / MGO floor and roof panels. Our SIP panels are NOA approved for all building zones in Florida. We have tested our MGO high impact panels to wind speeds over 200 mph.


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20 Nov 2017 01:21 PM
Posted By Innova on 20 Nov 2017 01:17 PM
Innova Eco Building Systems located in Miami Florida manufactures MGO SIP wall, floor and roof panels up to 4' x 20' long. We also manufacture plywood / MGO and OSB / MGO floor and roof panels. Our SIP panels are NOA approved for all building zones in Florida. We have tested our MGO high impact panels to wind speeds over 200 mph.


what would be the weight of a 4' x 20' x 6" thick MGO SIP?


Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
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20 Nov 2017 01:22 PM
I would recommend taking the free AIA training Course, "Designing with MGO Structural Insulated Panels", the course link is as follows: http://lms.architect-forum.com/player.php?course_id=260


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20 Nov 2017 01:39 PM
Please understand that not all MGO Boards are the same. There are many defective boards in the market. A quality MGO board with proper product approvals and moisture content will have no issue with a peel and stick roof membrane on a flat or sloped roof. We have no issue with nails in an MGO roof as long as they are ring shank nails. Quality MGO Boards will have a nail pullout equal to OSB and plywood, +/- 400 psi. Impact rated MGO will have a nail pullout of 900 - 1100 psi. In Florida, we use the OSB / MGO or the plywood / MGO panel for the roofs. Florida is a product approval state and unless the roof shingle, tile or metal roof manufacturer list MGO as an acceptable sheathing for their product, you cannot use it regardless of the nail pullout testing. We use Sherwin Williams Uniflex Fluid applied roof System. A 10 and 15 year manufacturers warranty is available with this system.


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20 Nov 2017 01:41 PM
Posted By Innova on 20 Nov 2017 01:22 PM
I would recommend taking the free AIA training Course, "Designing with MGO Structural Insulated Panels", the course link is as follows: http://lms.architect-forum.com/player.php?course_id=260



Thanks , Have gleaned thru that material, most of which shows using OSB Sips?,
what is the weight of a 4' x 20 x 6" thick?


Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
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20 Nov 2017 01:52 PM
What State are you working in? In Florida, SIPs are an engineered system and design drawings come from the panel manufacturer complete with engineered shop drawings and structural calculations. It would be best to work with a panel manufacturer during the development of the design process for the project. The SIP manufacturer will provide standard details and cut sections to be included in the design drawings, but the engineered shop drawings will show all of the engineering and connection details, not the Architectural or Structural drawings. The engineered shop drawings are submitted to the building department for approval. This is very common with curtain walls, precast and tilt up concrete panels, steel joist and a host of other engineered systems which require manufacturers engineered shop drawings to compliment the design drawings.


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20 Nov 2017 04:32 PM
Posted By Innova on 20 Nov 2017 01:39 PM
Please understand that not all MGO Boards are the same. There are many defective boards in the market. A quality MGO board with proper product approvals and moisture content will have no issue with a peel and stick roof membrane on a flat or sloped roof. We have no issue with nails in an MGO roof as long as they are ring shank nails. Quality MGO Boards will have a nail pullout equal to OSB and plywood, +/- 400 psi. Impact rated MGO will have a nail pullout of 900 - 1100 psi. In Florida, we use the OSB / MGO or the plywood / MGO panel for the roofs. Florida is a product approval state and unless the roof shingle, tile or metal roof manufacturer list MGO as an acceptable sheathing for their product, you cannot use it regardless of the nail pullout testing. We use Sherwin Williams Uniflex Fluid applied roof System. A 10 and 15 year manufacturers warranty is available with this system.

I need to clarify something, one panel maker may have had 6" o.c. screws into 2X's at the joints for walls, but I just found some roof details with 12" o.c. long panel screws from the outside into purlins, ridge beams and wall top plates.

To see the details I've described above go to MagWall dot com, technical information, above grade details, a PDF will upload, scroll to about page 6-22 for roofing details.

I see horizontal roof layout of panels, but not with the concealed joint of the walls with studs at the joints. Look at the very last detail sheet under "Miscellaneous", a foam and shim detail similar to OSB Sip's with a timber truss or timber purlin under it.  Looks to be more than just the 12" oc. long panel screws, I see a second set of screws for the "slip connector" plates that I assume are 6" o.c and perhaps not MgO perhaps OSB?  Good news is that despite all of these screws, they look to be from the top side only, not a lot of working over your head on scaffolding.  Bad news is every mechanical fastener is a hole in your roof that needs to be sealed or covered somehow.  Guess this is true of any roof though, right?

I guess that if you have wood timber trusses at 4'-0" o.c. and a diagonal length from wall/eave to peak/ridge of 20 feet or less, you could save a lot of joints/connection work.

EDIT-1: The weight of such a panel 4'W x 20'L x 12"D would be interesting to work with to say the least.

EDIT-2:  I need some assistance in finding similar details at innovaecobuildingsystem dot com.

EDIT-3:  FYI: page 86 of the AIA material as provided by innovaecobuildingsystems does indeed show (2) 2X's at the roof panel joints with fasteners each side at either 8"o.c. or 6"o.c. depending on screw size.  Such an important detail and it's very blurry, nice way to down play this labor intensive joint guys.  It is the only blurry detail in the entire document, and is that by accident?  So I need an engineer to do anything, and if cannot find the information I need in a reasonable time I assume neither will he.  This means a lot of money because time is money.  Please make it easier to get information, play like you want to win.









George (Architect)
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20 Nov 2017 04:45 PM
Please understand that these are engineered systems. Some manufacturers use dimensional lumber, LVL's or even metal studs. The spans of the panels, required wind uplift and the size of overhangs, location and such will determine the size and spacing of the screws. Our MGO HIP SIP wall panel can load +/- 29000# dead load on an 4' x 10' panel. I have yet to see another MGO SIP manufacturer with a test report indicating loading over 21000 psi for the same panel. Engineering will vary from manufacturer to manufacturer based on the test reports for those specific panels. The InnovaPanel© MGO SIP panel system is protected by 4 issued US Patents and we know of no equal MGO SIPs to date as far as loading and hurricane resistance.


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20 Nov 2017 04:57 PM
Posted By Innova on 20 Nov 2017 04:45 PM
Please understand that these are engineered systems. Some manufacturers use dimensional lumber, LVL's or even metal studs. The spans of the panels, required wind uplift and the size of overhangs, location and such will determine the size and spacing of the screws. Our MGO HIP SIP wall panel can load +/- 29000# dead load on an 4' x 10' panel. I have yet to see another MGO SIP manufacturer with a test report indicating loading over 21000 psi for the same panel. Engineering will vary from manufacturer to manufacturer based on the test reports for those specific panels. The InnovaPanel© MGO SIP panel system is protected by 4 issued US Patents and we know of no equal MGO SIPs to date as far as loading and hurricane resistance.



sounds doubtful I think you added an extra zero to the load and also at 21,000 psi x 144 sq inches per sq. foot = over 3 million lbs , somewhere your math is off


Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />
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20 Nov 2017 05:07 PM
I think that I will spend a little time seeing if I can get a SIP made with 1/2" pressure treated plywood on one side and 1/2" exterior grade plywood on the other, maybe the inside face will come with a pretty wood veneer like Baltic Birch and I can flat trim the joints with wood trim in some sort of grid pattern.

Sounds expensive, but maybe cheaper than being a Beta tester on some prototype construction nobody can get information on.

I'm just frustrated, need to get some fresh air and exercise now.



George (Architect)
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20 Nov 2017 06:02 PM
We have manufactured more than 300 MGO SIP homes the past 7 years, we have a Dade County NOA and Florida product approvals so we are beyond the testing phase with our product. The Dade County Building Code is the most stringent structural wind code in the USA. 36 of our homes have been involved in natural disasters of a EF2 Tornado, a Cat 4 and a Cat 5 hurricane. None of our homes sustained any major damage. We are the only MGO SIP manufacturer in the USA at this time that has a fully approved MGO SIP building system for plus 200 mph wind loads. A 1/2" PT plywood and 1/2" Baltic Birch SIP? Any SIP manufacturer can laminate this panel, but there will be no product approvals, this is a BETA tester panel for sure! I would suggest that you contact a SIPA manufacturing member that can assist you with the proper design and panel selection for your project. There are many panel options depending on the criteria for your specific project and any SIPA manufacturing member will be more than willing to share the information with you if you are purchasing product. They are not going to post the information online when most of the people asking the questions in these forums are competing product manufacturers. The link for SIPA is http://www.sips.org/ Just lookup the manufacturers that are near to the area you choose to build.


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20 Nov 2017 07:35 PM
With that many homes built I suppose a few of them have cathedral ceilings.

Could you please post or send me project photos showing the prior to filling and taping the interior ceiling screw holes?

I'm just trying to picture how much work was involved from the underside while up on scaffolding (if used at all).

Any drywall/gypsum board ceiling is going to be a lot of work up on scaffolding, just trying to get a comparison.

Photos of crews assembling the roof panels would go a long way in explaining how some of these connections are done in real life. 

Right now I'm only left to my imagination and it's involving car jacks, temporary shoring jigs, hoists and some dark magic.

 
EDIT:  Thank you for the sips.org link Innova, I was able to find one more company near me that I did not know about.

Oh and I did find this useful.

FYI: flame spread per R315 for exterior 1/2" plywood and 1/2" CDX is less than 200.

See here: Flame Spread Performance For Wood Products

Smoke development index appears to be less than 450 as well.

Smoke

Still researching.




George (Architect)
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