let me add my 2cents, I have spent countless hours choosing material for my new home. considered every single material in the mrket from matal roof, to metal sips to mgo and mgo OSB sips 1) have the same engineer take responsibility for the whole job or your AHJ can deny your whole application, so if one guy designs the house and the company designs the structure of the outside you might get an AHJ to give you a run around asking one of the engineers accept the whole plan. 2) if you find cheap labor you can make the same building with spray foam and grat insulation from outside and iside for the same price or cheper than SIPs . but most contractors add 30 to 50% to you actual cost so SIPs look very lucrative before you start. 3) MgO SIPs at this point is done by 2 companies one in florida and one in Canada they are both double the price of OSB SIPs. SIPs was my dream but my AHJ and the cost through out of the window. I ended up finding cheap labor and that combined with my horrible AHJ pushed me to skip SIPs all together

Posted By doctorman on 20 Nov 2017 11:04 PM
let me add my 2cents............... I ended up finding cheap labor and that combined with my horrible AHJ pushed me to skip SIPs all together

Thank you for comments, it exposes the gap between a fine concept and the practicalities of the real world, something we all struggle with no matter our occupation.  We do not live in a perfect world, no more than there is a perfect building material or perfect building system.

Very often what does come out of our compromises in life, are small steps in improving an existing system or a hybridization of some sort.

As an example, and I've already posted this link, a CDX plywood and MGO SIP so you can have your nail-able roof or wall sheathing and your interior finish all in one.  Why this wasn't pointed out earlier by our "expert" I do not know.  Just all the more confusing and frustrating. 

Composite SIP



 

Despite what SIP manufacturers tell you there are many many practical issues when it comes down to use SIPs or any new material. It is sad. SIPs are awesome but you have to fight for them so much that makes them useless.. My engineer would not accept to sign anything with SIP on it, the manufacturer could not design my house so my AHJ found a gap and avoided learning about inspecting SIPs. the inspectors have no idea how to inspect them and they do NOT want to learn. the inspector actually persuaded other in the building department to not accept the plans. I understand every individuals point in this issue but bottom line there is a reason that devlopers do not use SIPs. MGO on SIPS as finished wall... issues come to mind, shipping weight, much more fragile and get banged in shipping or during install more expensive , so at the end all the money you spent to do less work .. will turn into more work and more money down the drain. I am looking forward to good MgO boards take over the sheetrock market in homedepot but there is a reason homedepot is resistant to it... Practicality and price Inova in florida for sure can design your home and make the whole thing out of SIPs but I can imagine it would be cheaper than a regular tight build with spray foam inside and stucco foam outside. and you still have to fight the electrician, and plumber and AHJ and everyone in the middle. Kill the deal!

Posted By kach22i on 21 Nov 2017 02:51 PM

Posted By doctorman on 20 Nov 2017 11:04 PM
let me add my 2cents............... I ended up finding cheap labor and that combined with my horrible AHJ pushed me to skip SIPs all together

Thank you for comments, it exposes the gap between a fine concept and the practicalities of the real world, something we all struggle with no matter our occupation.  We do not live in a perfect world, no more than there is a perfect building material or perfect building system.

Very often what does come out of our compromises in life, are small steps in improving an existing system or a hybridization of some sort.

As an example, and I've already posted this link, a CDX plywood and MGO SIP so you can have your nail-able roof or wall sheathing and your interior finish all in one.  Why this wasn't pointed out earlier by our "expert" I do not know.  Just all the more confusing and frustrating. 

Composite SIP



 

The link will give you the information about the the finishing of the underside of the MGO roof panels. http://www.sips.org/downloads/2016-Annual-Meeting-MgO-Tues-9am-Gillman-SIPA-mgo-sip.pdf

Here is a link that will demonstrate the superior performance of an MGO SIPs structure during hurricane Irma in the Florida Keys. http://www.prweb.com/releases/2017/09/prweb14734062.htm

You may find this link on InnovaPanels© helpful as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui9dxVqDYsw

What are InnovaPanels©? https://youtu.be/GzfOXDvA-0k

I'm talking about a manufacturers labor and material warranty, not a contractors warranty. Most manufacturers residential roof warranty only covers the roof material if installed correctly. You still have to pay the labor to remove and install the new roof material. I think you will be hard pressed to find a 25 year manufacturers material and labor warranty on any residential flat roof system that is affordable, at least in Florida you will. The standard manufacturers warranty purchased for most residential flat roof systems is 10 years (single ply torch down). You can purchase additional years from most manufacturers but the cost for residential construction is usually not warranted. The contractor may give you 25 years but who knows if they will be in business next year? You will get a better manufacturers warranty at a lower cost with a single slope roof or gable design than a true flat roof design which depends on crickets, scuppers and roof drains to remove and drain rain water. Flat roofs tend to rot and deteriorate prematurely if they do not have proper drainage.

Posted By Innova on 21 Nov 2017 03:33 PM
You may find this link on InnovaPanels© helpful as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui9dxVqDYsw

I've pecked and hunted though these materials more than once, and they do not contain the information I am looking for.

I've drawn the conclusion that if really committed to using any of these non-traditional products a visit to a job site or two, conversations with a construction crew, and even some hands-on factory training may be required to really feel confident using them.

And after all that, you could still have a battle with people that don't have your self-taught educational experience nor would care to -  just like Doc went through.

I'm moving on to getting a better grip on dew points, and future changes to the building code along with perceptive methods verses  code minimum, no more vapor barriers on warm side of wall with added ext rigid insulation because the wall needs to release vapor/moisture somewhere - everything is changing again just like in the early 1980's.   

In short, I'm looking into the basic science, not the code minimums and not new products that force me to questioning everything that I thought I knew.

I get more excited about a 5-year warranty from a company with 25 years of history than I do by a 25-year warranty from a company with 5 years of history. Quite frankly I'm little moved by either warranty. Warranties in practice are seldom worth much more than the paper they're written on.

3) I do not agree with your assessment of OSB SIPs cost vs MGO as being double the cost of OSB SIPS; this statement seems somewhat incomplete and possibly lacking in fairness? First with your OSB SIP, you need to fur the interior walls and install drywall. You also need to install drywall to the underside of all of the OSB SIP roof panels. Add this cost to your OSB analysis as MGO SIP can be finished similar to drywall, so no drywall required for the MGO SIP project. When your drywall is complete, you still have an inferior product that will mold and is far less impact and fire resistant than MGO. Round one for added value and cost effectiveness clearly goes to MGO SIP. Now let's go to the exterior. You will need a vapor barrier over your OSB SIP and some type of siding or lath and stucco product. Then you will need a paint finish. Add these cost to your OSB evaluation as MGO SIP panels can be finished with a exterior paint finish without any additional vapor barriers or additional siding products. Round two on cost, ease and time of construction again goes to MGO SIP. Additionally, the completed MGO SIP structure is not affected by termites, cannot say the same for OSB SIP or most other wood framed structures. MGO SIP is comparable to masonry block and concrete construction and many advantages over a wood framed or OSB SIP structure.

That is a great point and why the manufacturer’s warranty of the Innova MGO SIP product is insured by an A+ rated company for manufacturers defects and liability coverage. The warranty of the Innova Products is covered by Insurance so that in the event Innova is not around, coverage is provided for the life of the warranty period. As you must know, this is not the case with most manufacturers product warranties.

I can always buy MGO board from foreverboard highquality made of USA and use that instead of sheet rock. Innova has a good produc but it still requires fighting with AHJ and inspectors and I could not justify the double the pricing of Innova. Innova qouted me close to 60K$ shipped OSB SIPs came upto 25K$ shipped Innova has the engineering for OSB SIPS and it milking it, and good for you while you have no real competition in MgO SIPs again I do not disagree with SIPs. I am just saying in practice it is much harder to get to use them due to the obstacles created by people not familiar to it.

Yes, I have seen many of those OSB quotes and they do not include the interior walls and most do not include the lumber and nails and many other accessories required for installation. With the Innova Kit, Interior and exterior walls and roof system is included. Every fastener, sealants, straps and connections is included. The lumber is all fabricated, cut to size and color coated for easy identification. Our panels are arranged and packed by wall elevations for shipping so that you do not loose a day on the job sorting random piles of panels. I'm sure if you run a spread sheet and compare apples to apples, the MGO SIP will give you a superior product at a fair competitive price. Again, MGO SIP is designed to compete with masonry and concrete construction, not wood framed construction. Innova is located in Miami, the Category 5 hurricane zone with 190 mph wind requirements so trying to compare a wood home to a masonry or MGO SIP home is not a far comparison if your only evaluation criteria is cost? The MGO SIP homes have fully developed window and door bucks while the OSB window and door frames are wrapped with 2 x material which is why they are not accepted in the Cat 5 zone. What about fire, termites, mold, durability, strength and performance and a 20 year warranty? These are all important concerns if you plan to live in the home the next 20 years or so. I would investigate the Innova website, there is over 600 pages of information available including a You Tube page link with several informative videos that will help you plan your next project with MGO SIP. Im sure that you will find information to answer most of your questions about the product, including cost of the kits. Innova also manufactures Florida approved OSB SIP and James Hardie Cement Fiber Board SIP in addition to our main product which is MGO SIP. We also do custom lamination's for clients of various composite designs.

I have a question, which side of the MGO SIP is the water vapor supposed to migrate through?

Typically it's one side or the other and with a wood skin SIP, northern climates vapor barrier on the inside/warm face, so that moisture vents to the cold dry air outside.  Warm moist air is kept inside.

See: PDF Link on SIP's

I've heard that in climates that cooling is used more than heating the vapor barrier may be reversed, meaning hot and sunny with A/C on all the time the vapor barrier should be on the outside to keep the warm moist air out, cool dry air inside the building. 

Sounds easy to do with the proper paint and finishes, right?

A spay foam technical representative told me about this document as a good training primer on the topic.

Understanding Vapor Barriers

If link does not work, just search the phrase using the capital letters as shown above.  Should be first or second hit, it's a PDF.

It's kind of long and boring, but good stuff.



 

No these are not metal panels, we are talking about Magnesium Cement panels and they load much more than metal wall panels. The loading of a quality MGO SIP Panels is similar to masonry block walls of the same thickness. Based on ASTM E72-10, section 9 compression loading for a 6" thick x 4' wide x 10' tall MGO SIP manufactured by Innova Eco is, 28,853# concentrated, 7141# distributed per Linear Foot. Certified NOA load test results that have been approved by Dade County are available at: http://www.miamidade.gov/building/library/productcontrol/noa/14120206.pdf We know of no other SIPS of any type skin on the market with higher axial loading results than the Dade County NOA approved Innova Panel. In addition, our MGO SIP panels have been tested for wind loads over 200 mph which exceeds current code wind load requirements.

Can a 12" thick MGO SIP span 20' in a floor SIP application? And do you ship to California?

You can make that span in a roof panel but the issue you have with the floors is the allowable deflection, and the live loads, so most likely your engineer is using L/360 as the requirement. The difference in spans for a floor panels from a 4" panel to a 12" panel is not going to be that much. We use 4-1/2" thick floor panels with 14 mm MGO skins and keep our spans in the 4 to 5' range.

Yes we ship to California and do have a representative there as well. Give us a call if we can be of further assistance.