Hi, this is a question for those in a home with metal SIPs or those experienced with their installation. We live in NE Missouri. During +90 degree days or during near zero temperatures (like we are experiencing now), louder popping sounds happen. They don't seem isolated to a particular location. Have others experienced this? Is this normal or should we be concerned? I realize that is a broad question, but with our installers so far away, it is up to me to initially diagnose any issues. So any info/advice is appreciated. P.S. We love our metal SIP home. It's performed exceptionally well.

Posted By jtcarroll on 18 Dec 2016 07:40 AM
Hi, this is a question for those in a home with metal SIPs or those experienced with their installation. We live in NE Missouri. During +90 degree days or during near zero temperatures (like we are experiencing now), louder popping sounds happen. They don't seem isolated to a particular location. Have others experienced this? Is this normal or should we be concerned? I realize that is a broad question, but with our installers so far away, it is up to me to initially diagnose any issues. So any info/advice is appreciated. P.S. We love our metal SIP home. It's performed exceptionally well.

jtcarroll,
if you think it is an isolated area, what is different about that area ,
is the screw pattern different?
are the attachment screws further apart or closer together in that area ?
are the roof attachment screws tighter or looser in that area ?
what is the finished roof covering ?
is there drywall on the interior side of the roof/ceiling?

We install and live in a SIPS house. We have experienced the same popping noises during times of the year with temperature changes. This is normal. It is a consequence of expansion and contraction of the panels. As far as we are concerned, it is nothing to be worried about. Wood frame houses do it too. Sometimes it's loud, and sometimes it's barely noticeable.

In the summer, I believe it is isolated to one area of the roof that sits above a non-load bearing supporting wall (metal studs). I suspected that it was screws associated with that connection. In the cold it does not seem isolated to the roof, since the walls also make popping sounds. This is our second year in the hone, but the first day I have heard any sounds in winter, so I don't have much evidence yet, We have a standing seam metal roof attached directly to the SIPs. We have left the exterior metal SIPs exposed for the walls, so no siding attachments.

Screws might be tighter or looser and the the pattern might vary, but difficult to confirm now. Thanks for the idea, though. If the pattern varies significantly, would it cause any other issues than the sounds?

Posted By jtcarroll on 18 Dec 2016 08:19 AM
In the summer, I believe it is isolated to one area of the roof that sits above a non-load bearing supporting wall (metal studs). I suspected that it was screws associated with that connection. In the cold it does not seem isolated to the roof, since the walls also make popping sounds. This is our second year in the hone, but the first day I have heard any sounds in winter, so I don't have much evidence yet, We have a standing seam metal roof attached directly to the SIPs. We have left the exterior metal SIPs exposed for the walls, so no siding attachments.

Screws might be tighter or looser and the the pattern might vary, but difficult to confirm now. Thanks for the idea, though. If the pattern varies significantly, would it cause any other issues than the sounds?

jtcarroll,
hopefully there is a slip sheet between the standing seam roof and the SIP roof, but regardless- it is possible that some of the sound is the standing seam roof itself, the screw attachments need to be in correct position and not tight or it will not allow the roof to expand and contract freely and independently from the structural deck- resulting on a "popping" noise, same is true with vinyl and aluminum siding

Thanks for the replies, Chris, David.

No, there is no slip sheet between the roof and SIPs. They are directly attached. Problem?

I believe I have found one source of the sound. In our attic where I can see the panels, the panel that is adjacent to the panel over a full length, parallel support wall has slightly popped out of the tongue and groove channel of its neighbor. This is a guess, but it could be that the panel over the wall is well supported along its length and doesn't move as much as this panel, so even a slight deformation during contraction and expansion caused the issue. It is definitely the source of a louder pop.

I believe that I'll need address this since there is likely a small air gap in the space that will lead to condensation issues. My intent is to drill small holes every 4-6" then use foam to fill the gap. It should be no greater than 1/4" I suspect. I will then caulk the seam and perhaps cover with a waterproof membrane tape. Does this sound like a reasonable plan?

jtcarroll,
yes a slip sheet of at least 30# felt is needed,and without it can lead to condensation issues on the underside of your standing seam roof
sorry not following the T&G issue , I've never seen a separation at the T&G


I get called to inspect (all types)SIP issues most SIP issues lead back to improper installation, short cuts, over-spanning,cheating on fasteners , etc.

Steel expands and contracts at the highest rate of any material out there. So if you experience vast temperature changes then the steel will expand and contract quite quickly and create sounds.

I had the cr*p scared out of me when I was at a job site and the steel trash bin at the site suddenly "popped" due to thermal expansion and it sounded like a firework going off as it thudded.

The higher the diurnal swings, the higher the probability of those noises. In climates were the temps only see 10-20 degree swings will not have as much issues as climates where 30-40 degree day to night swings happen.

Thanks LBear. Yeah, the first time it happened, it scared us, too. Glad to hear this is common, which is all I really wanted to hear.

Chris, what appears to have happened is that one SIP roofing panel may not have been fully seated or was improperly seated in the T&G slot of the next panel. Since the panels are long and over a cathedral ceiling, there appears to be some slight bowing over the length of about roughly 1/4". The panel next to it isn't moving since it's sitting on top of a parallel wall, so one panel's edge has slightly moved below the edge of its neighbor. Since they weren't properly seated, I am guessing there is a slight gap between the panels, since I see some indications of condensation. That's what I'd like to address.

I'll also watch that panel closely to confirm that I don't see any further bowing indicating some greater problem.

I live in a steel SIP house, and yes I hear lots of pops due to expansion/contraction, and moreso when the temperature is changing quickly.

Posted By jtcarroll on 19 Dec 2016 02:36 PM
Thanks LBear. Yeah, the first time it happened, it scared us, too. Glad to hear this is common, which is all I really wanted to hear.

Chris, what appears to have happened is that one SIP roofing panel may not have been fully seated or was improperly seated in the T&G slot of the next panel. Since the panels are long and over a cathedral ceiling, there appears to be some slight bowing over the length of about roughly 1/4". The panel next to it isn't moving since it's sitting on top of a parallel wall, so one panel's edge has slightly moved below the edge of its neighbor. Since they weren't properly seated, I am guessing there is a slight gap between the panels, since I see some indications of condensation. That's what I'd like to address.

I'll also watch that panel closely to confirm that I don't see any further bowing indicating some greater problem.

There was a steel siding home and when I stood next to it, I thought there were rodents scurrying within the walls but it was actually the steel popping and moving around when the sun hit it and then it cooled off.

Steel also sees greater condensation issues than wood can. Since steel is a thermal bridge and carries no R-Value, it can and does remain colder than the other materials during the winter season. Metal roofs see dew point at higher rates. Once again, just like the steel dumpster that pops and thuds during temperature swings, it also is affected by dew point. That same metal dumpster was drenched in moisture every morning whenever the temps dropped and dew point was met in the early AM.

If there is an air leak on the roof portion, you will have problems. Any SIP roofs weakest link are the panel connection areas. They must be sealed properly with T&G, caulk and SIP panel tape. If not, hot air will rise inside the home, hit the cold air leak, condense and turn into water moisture. This will eventually cause mold, rot and damage to the roof and surrounding areas.

Make sure you don't have a panel air leak going on.

Posted By Lbear on 19 Dec 2016 02:20 PM
Steel expands and contracts at the highest rate of any material out there. So if you experience vast temperature changes then the steel will expand and contract quite quickly and create sounds.

I had the cr*p scared out of me when I was at a job site and the steel trash bin at the site suddenly "popped" due to thermal expansion and it sounded like a firework going off as it thudded.

The higher the diurnal swings, the higher the probability of those noises. In climates were the temps only see 10-20 degree swings will not have as much issues as climates where 30-40 degree day to night swings happen.

Not so , aluminum is nearly twice the expansion coefficient of steel
and PVC is 4 times that of steel a reason why PVC door jambs are not a great idea in direct sunlight , they will swell and deform

I get what everyone is saying about condensation. We have been dealing with those issues every since the house was built. Panel seams that are above windows leak from condensation when it is too cold..

Question to installers. When you put panels together, how do you account for the ways the foam doesn't necessarily fit tightly together? Our installers used a bead of caulk in the T&G channel, but it's obvious that didn't completely stop air flow. How does everyone finish their panel connections? Trying to determine if there is anything I can do now. Thanks.

Posted By jtcarroll on 20 Dec 2016 07:42 PM
I get what everyone is saying about condensation. We have been dealing with those issues every since the house was built. Panel seams that are above windows leak from condensation when it is too cold..

Question to installers. When you put panels together, how do you account for the ways the foam doesn't necessarily fit tightly together? Our installers used a bead of caulk in the T&G channel, but it's obvious that didn't completely stop air flow. How does everyone finish their panel connections? Trying to determine if there is anything I can do now. Thanks.

jtcarrol;
when the installer was setting the panels every vertical seam should be bottomed out to the next,if need be, each panel should be tapped into place with a flat 2x4 block and a small sledge (this insure foam to foam contact) ... in northern climates (like yours) the recommended sealant is FSI-96 butyl caulking, it stays pliable and never sets. and it should be applied to the interior side lip,
if the installers used latex caulk it may have separated.
You can surface caulk with APS 500 Polymer , it adheres to most anything and can be used in expansion joints

jtcarroll....what type of connection do your panels have? Do they have a ship lap, friction fit, or snap-n-lock? When we install panels, we use a panel with a snap-n-lock connection. We have built 20+ houses with this connection and have never had any condensation problems or panels coming apart. Most of our houses have been built in Florida. There is often a rapid temperature change of 20-30 degrees. Our plans are engineered with a specific screw pattern which, if followed, should eliminate errors by the installers.

Posted By jtcarroll on 20 Dec 2016 07:42 PM
I get what everyone is saying about condensation. We have been dealing with those issues every since the house was built. Panel seams that are above windows leak from condensation when it is too cold..

Question to installers. When you put panels together, how do you account for the ways the foam doesn't necessarily fit tightly together? Our installers used a bead of caulk in the T&G channel, but it's obvious that didn't completely stop air flow. How does everyone finish their panel connections? Trying to determine if there is anything I can do now. Thanks.

There is nothing normal about loud popping sounds in building's. The fact of the matter is like many others you choose one of the worse designs out there. Most skins are OSB junk terrible at managing heat and moisture and have a food for fungi( not inert) as is the core. At the seams where the air seals are suppose to be in 1/3 compression, do not get pressure tested nor verified. Most of seals are neoprene not a quality solid bulb seal w/correct properties and the gaps are not controlled at the manufacture nor the lack of installation tooling to get the 1/3 compression. Even with the seams air sealed, they can become easily vapor locked, at the max moisture holding capacities, and not dry out in the 48 hours to prevent mold and rot. Most rot will start at seams, or fail mid panel in deflection.

The LAST thing you want to do is add a reactive polymer to an already bad situation.

Often the spans are too high so the panels start to fail in delection, creep, permanent deformation, that is more than likely the "popping" others have noticed. Read this thread:http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/aff/5/aft/84140/afv/topic/Default.aspx

"We are very concerned about the structural integrity of our home now (recently hearing lots of popping)"

First and foremost get a pro into check your indoor air quality. If you have a SPF core it may be trying to recure when it sees moisture/heat and out-gassing. Typically loud popping sounds result from explosive reactions. Next in the areas where popping is occurring it may be best to remove the roof cladding get a visual and whats causing it.

Best to hire a local pro that knows what they are doing before your building fails more or you spend lots of money to make matters worse. If you cannot find a local qualified I may be interested although I'm booked until early next year. I have a client getting mold from SPF to solve next. Just PM me.

Posted By DavidBrownEnterprises on 21 Dec 2016 07:14 AM
jtcarroll....what type of connection do your panels have? Do they have a ship lap, friction fit, or snap-n-lock? When we install panels, we use a panel with a snap-n-lock connection. We have built 20+ houses with this connection and have never had any condensation problems or panels coming apart. Most of our houses have been built in Florida. There is often a rapid temperature change of 20-30 degrees. Our plans are engineered with a specific screw pattern which, if followed, should eliminate errors by the installers.

We posted in minutes of each other :) ...Sounds good, sounds like you are tuned into one of the issues I posted. Can you post a link to your "snap and lock" design. Yes, seam seals have to be designed to a lack of installer tooling jigs and the proper seal compression. I have a custom home design with exposed trusses I'm currently doing for a client, a good sip roof would make it easier but, I have yet to see a good design and materials, so I'm thinking build-up.

Our panels have a friction fit, T&G connection. They are very similar to the PermaTherm panels.

Since Chris doesn't experience issues with this style, installation procedure is the likely culprit. We are in a northern climate, and we have left the exterior panels exposed (for now).

Last winter we also experienced leaking on the top of windows from condensation. This winter we are seeing it again. Last year we pulled off the trim and molding and saw that some panels do not seem to be perfectly seated together in some instances, so there are thin air gaps--still enough to let air pass through from warm to cold surfaces. I also worry about the top of the panels where it meets the slanted roof, if that was air sealed well.

In the first year, the installers tried to insert foam up through the top of each leaking window. They drilled a hole up where the panels meet, then inserted a long tube, spraying the foam while drawing the tube down. That fixed a few of the windows, but we still have 4 with condensation issues.

I've been considering how I might fix this now. A radical fix would be drilling holes along panel seams every 4-6" from the inside. Spray foam in to attempt to fill the channel. It may not fill completely, but I can get close, and it might also serve as a water "bulkhead." At the top of the panel, I could be more aggressive with the foam to make sure the top panel connection is sealed. Then caulk along the inside seam with FSI-96 butyl caulk as recommended by Chris.

Any other suggestions or additions are certainly appreciated. If someone was in my area to inspect it, I would certainly have them out. But everyone is in warmer climates. :-)

Posted By jtcarroll on 21 Dec 2016 07:37 AM
Our panels have a friction fit, T&G connection. They are very similar to the PermaTherm panels.

Since Chris doesn't experience issues with this style, installation procedure is the likely culprit. We are in a northern climate, and we have left the exterior panels exposed (for now).

Last winter we also experienced leaking on the top of windows from condensation. This winter we are seeing it again. Last year we pulled off the trim and molding and saw that some panels do not seem to be perfectly seated together in some instances, so there are thin air gaps--still enough to let air pass through from warm to cold surfaces. I also worry about the top of the panels where it meets the slanted roof, if that was air sealed well.

In the first year, the installers tried to insert foam up through the top of each leaking window. They drilled a hole up where the panels meet, then inserted a long tube, spraying the foam while drawing the tube down. That fixed a few of the windows, but we still have 4 with condensation issues.

I've been considering how I might fix this now. A radical fix would be drilling holes along panel seams every 4-6" from the inside. Spray foam in to attempt to fill the channel. It may not fill completely, but I can get close, and it might also serve as a water "bulkhead." At the top of the panel, I could be more aggressive with the foam to make sure the top panel connection is sealed. Then caulk along the inside seam with FSI-96 butyl caulk as recommended by Chris.

Any other suggestions or additions are certainly appreciated. If someone was in my area to inspect it, I would certainly have them out. But everyone is in warmer climates. :-)

jtcarroll,
most likely yours are Precision Foam Fabricators ,
your installation is most likely the culprit and not the panel, if I'm not mistaken the install was done by Simmons?

DO NOT use the Butyl now it is meant for the inside lip of the panel and not a topical solution, for exposed metal use the APS 500

Yes, that's the maker and the installer.

Thanks for the warning on the butyl and the info on APS 500. I've not purchased any yet.