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SIP House in FL - nagging real world questions. Long...

Last Post 18 Dec 2020 04:06 PM by Innova. 37 Replies.

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FLMike

New Member

Posts:11

30 Aug 2018 02:53 AM
Hi guys, I've been interested in building a SIP house for years, and reading up, watching videos, and lurking here :) , but have some questions I haven't seen answered anywhere. I'm really sold on MGO SIP panels in particular and have 16 acres 45 min outside Orlando, FL we want to build on. I'm not interested in arguing about steel, OSB, whatever, just looking at MGO in this post. So Id like to build the best house possible (obviously) using as little wood as possible. I understand the footer that the walls set on can be HPDE or some type of plastic lumber, -Can the window/door sills etc also be made of that and meet code? AC ducts, plumbing, electrical- So you just finished your MGO SIP shell, nice vaulted ceilings/roof. - -Now where does all the HVAC duct work go? -Can there be any plumbing in the exterior walls or does it have to run up through the slab just outside the wall or what? -I've seen videos of running the electric and have run low voltage professionally years ago in my youth. Looks to be about 2x the work but doable, no problem. -How do you mount the boxes in the MGO/foam solidly enough to; hang a ceiling fan in a SIP roof, resist 20+ yrs of ppl yanking cords out etc? -What about mounting a big screen TV? Cabinets? Roofs -I assume MGO cant be used by code on the external side of the roof because of nail holding strength etc, so I've seen plywood/mgo and that's fine. -What do manufactures suggest for a roof system? Sealed membrane or breathable? I would spend the extra money and do barrel tile roof because they have a built in breathable air gap, but that's my layman internet opinion. Not interested in going cheap and trying to roll on some trailer seal every few years. Manufacturer suggestions? Exterior/Interior Finish The plan is to use an acrylic spray on knock down stucco, preferably colored already. (again layman internet opnion) -On the outside is that waterproof enough to be applied directly to the MGO with no extra vapor barrier or adhesive treatments? MGO will absorb water even through humidity from my understanding, does it need to breath? -Whats the best external wall system thats not brick (easy/inexpensive/hurricane resistant)? I really like vinyl siding because it goes together easy, has a breathable air gap, very water resistant, long life, choose your color, no painting/maintenance etc but is delicate to wind damage and can look cheap if done wrong. Foundation -Slab on grade or pier/pile foundation. Would a SIP house benefit from using 10" sip floors on a pier/pile foundation? I know the electricity and plumbing would be more accessible etc or am I over thinking it?. Costs? Thanks for reading all this and I look forward to any replies/suggestions. FLMike

cmkavala

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Posts:4324
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30 Aug 2018 10:24 AM
FLmike, your suppliers FL Product Approval will tell you if you can use composite lumber or not otherwise you would need to get it independently engineered also you need to make sure the mfg is OK with it (in writing) or you could void the warranty

Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />

FLMike

New Member

Posts:11

03 Sep 2018 05:23 AM
Thanks cmkavala, I'm really surprised there's not more replies from ppl who have built or even manufacturers of sips. It seems they would be great for getting an efficient shell up but the logistics for running all the wires, plumbing, and HVAC duct work would be a nightmare. I've never seen a SIP building in the semi finished stage with all that equipment installed. Maybe theres a reason Is Innova still active on this forum? they are a local builder near me.

cmkavala

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Posts:4324
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03 Sep 2018 11:59 AM
Posted By FLMike on 03 Sep 2018 05:23 AM Thanks cmkavala, I'm really surprised there's not more replies from ppl who have built or even manufacturers of sips. It seems they would be great for getting an efficient shell up but the logistics for running all the wires, plumbing, and HVAC duct work would be a nightmare. I've never seen a SIP building in the semi finished stage with all that equipment installed. Maybe theres a reason Is Innova still active on this forum? they are a local builder near me. FLmike, there is no difference in the logistics of running the electrical and mechanicals than conventional, except if the system has chases (electricians hate those) I have hundreds of photos in the rough-in stage , some can be see at www.greensips.com I also have a customer in Leesburg , FL that is in the rough mechanical stage that would welcome anyone to visit his construction site Innova is actually a MFG not a builder

Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />

sipsresource User is Offline

New Member

Posts:4

05 Sep 2018 02:28 PM
FLMike, Just a few thoughts; MGO sips has it's place just as metal sips, they both work for certain designs and environments;based on your original post maybe you should consider a combination of both MGO and Metal ! I prefer OSB for ease of work-ability on-site and yes I have built with and manufactured the other panels as well, weight and size of panels are my concerns with MGO. Just keep this in mind when considering and designing a roof of any size using MGO panels, your cost will be considerable to support the load, especially if you lean towards true barrel tile roof. A membrane will work if you like the look and works with the design. Technology has changed the way we build today as we all know and see, with the correct use and combination of technology OSB is my preferred panel material. Wire chase design for wall panels is basically the same in the different panels, yes it can be a challenge at times in wiring but really even in a stick built home, issues arise! Roof panels can be designed and manufactured to accept lighting but generally it is best not to do this unless it is a thick panel, again if designed for that type of fixture during the manufacturing stage! Enjoy your build!

newbostonconst User is Offline

Advanced Member

Posts:736

06 Sep 2018 12:26 PM
So if you don't put lighting in the ceiling....do you bounce lights off the ceiling from fixtures mounted on the walls? I know you don't use table lamps..... Tried searching but came up with nothing.

"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." George Carlins

DavidBrownEnterprises User is Offline

New Member

Posts:25

06 Sep 2018 01:26 PM
Hi FLMike. Our company installs SIP house packages in Florida. We primarily use the steel SIPS for so many reasons. In a house with vaulted ceilings, you have to account for dropped ceilings in strategic places to accommodate air conditioning ductwork, and some light fixtures. In most of the houses that we build, the ceilings are dropped over the kitchen, hallways and bathrooms. Of course the layout of the floor plan is important in these considerations. For rooms with vaulted ceilings, we will have a wire chase built into the panel at the specific location for ceiling fans, or other hanging light fixtures. All of the vaulted ceilings and interior SIP walls have 1 1/2" hat channel attached to them before the drywall is installed. So for the interior walls, the low-profile electrical boxes can be used for the wall plugs, cable and telephone wiring. For the window and door openings, we install steel or aluminum channel on the cut edge of the panel opening before installing the doors or windows. Although we only build with steel SIPS, I think my answers to some of your questions are applicable to the MGO SIP panels too.

FLMike

New Member

Posts:11

08 Sep 2018 02:17 PM
Thanks guys that answers some questions. I understand what you mean by engineering the hvac ele, and plumbing around using sips and get creative to run the duck work etc, i guess you cant really put a toilet or sink on an outer wall with out the plumbing coming out of the floor or something. The reason I was leaning towards MGO SIPs was to reduce time expense and labor because I "think" you can just seal the seams and do a primer and flexible colored acrylic stucco for both the interior and exterior. With most any other wall you will need a vapor barrier, insulation, furring, and some sort of expensive siding or drywall over the SIP/Framing. If that is true I would want to have engineered ele boxes in the vaulted ceiling SIP. I understand they cut the chase and even prerun the wire, but how does the box mount and support a fan, hanging light fixture etc. with no studs? Regarding the roof, my understanding is MGO and steel are not rated for pull out strength and thats why they use OBS or ply MGO roofs? Is that true? CMKAVALA I checked out your site and saw some pics of utilities ran in the ceiling. My property is in Leesburg and I will be up there in the next few weeks, can you PM some info on looking at that house? Thx! Thanks guys you definitely answered some questions, and now I have more lol.

cmkavala

Veteran Member

Posts:4324
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08 Sep 2018 03:01 PM
Posted By FLMike on 08 Sep 2018 02:17 PM Thanks guys that answers some questions. I understand what you mean by engineering the hvac ele, and plumbing around using sips and get creative to run the duck work etc, i guess you cant really put a toilet or sink on an outer wall with out the plumbing coming out of the floor or something. The reason I was leaning towards MGO SIPs was to reduce time expense and labor because I "think" you can just seal the seams and do a primer and flexible colored acrylic stucco for both the interior and exterior. With most any other wall you will need a vapor barrier, insulation, furring, and some sort of expensive siding or drywall over the SIP/Framing. If that is true I would want to have engineered ele boxes in the vaulted ceiling SIP. I understand they cut the chase and even prerun the wire, but how does the box mount and support a fan, hanging light fixture etc. with no studs? Regarding the roof, my understanding is MGO and steel are not rated for pull out strength and thats why they use OBS or ply MGO roofs? Is that true? CMKAVALA I checked out your site and saw some pics of utilities ran in the ceiling. My property is in Leesburg and I will be up there in the next few weeks, can you PM some info on looking at that house? Thx! Thanks guys you definitely answered some questions, and now I have more lol. FLmike, You can put toilets and sinks on exterior walls, normally the toilet is thru the floor anyway , as well as showers and tub drains, sink drains and waterlines can be cut into the SIP wall, but why make it tough on yourself if you don't need to? easier to stub thru the floor IMHO, screws do have pull out ratings for steel skins and I would add they are consistent because the skin is uniformly made unlike wood chips glues and pressed together furring out walls and ceilings is a better way to run electric wiring and it is always accessible just below the drywall any panel that uses chases prohibits your from ever adding or alterating the electrical in the future , it is literally buried in the panel, electricians hate the chases and liken them to doing a remodeling job fishing thru the walls electrical inspectors are not fond either because they cannot see the work on rough in , there's no way to guarantee that the wire was not spliced in the wall because its not visible. steel SIPs are the vapor barrier and you can applied coatings like stuc-o-flex directly to the skin MGO is at least twice the weight , limited in length, OSB (termites need I say more?)

Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />

cmkavala

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Posts:4324
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08 Sep 2018 06:18 PM
Posted By FLMike on 08 Sep 2018 02:17 PM Thanks guys that answers some questions. I understand what you mean by engineering the hvac ele, and plumbing around using sips and get creative to run the duck work etc, i guess you cant really put a toilet or sink on an outer wall with out the plumbing coming out of the floor or something. The reason I was leaning towards MGO SIPs was to reduce time expense and labor because I "think" you can just seal the seams and do a primer and flexible colored acrylic stucco for both the interior and exterior. With most any other wall you will need a vapor barrier, insulation, furring, and some sort of expensive siding or drywall over the SIP/Framing. If that is true I would want to have engineered ele boxes in the vaulted ceiling SIP. I understand they cut the chase and even prerun the wire, but how does the box mount and support a fan, hanging light fixture etc. with no studs? Regarding the roof, my understanding is MGO and steel are not rated for pull out strength and thats why they use OBS or ply MGO roofs? Is that true? CMKAVALA I checked out your site and saw some pics of utilities ran in the ceiling. My property is in Leesburg and I will be up there in the next few weeks, can you PM some info on looking at that house? Thx! Thanks guys you definitely answered some questions, and now I have more lol.

Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />

scottishjohn User is Offline

Basic Member

Posts:109

25 Sep 2018 10:53 AM
yes MGO is waterproof and yes it will breath as well as any coating you apply to it--but if its a real SIP panel ,not stick and foam infill,the moisture won,t go anywhere anyway as the pir /pur / eps foam is also bug and waterproof . you want std type roofing just use tile battens attached to mgo with ring nails and continue as normal

scottishjohn User is Offline

Basic Member

Posts:109

25 Sep 2018 10:55 AM
In uk alot of MGO sip panelled house finish with "slip brick" just cemented direct to MGO panels --basically a brick but only 7Mm or 10MM thick 3/8" to you--so it looks like a brick house

FLMike

New Member

Posts:11

25 Sep 2018 12:47 PM
That looks like a good product, but is MGO really waterproof, or just not affected by moisture much? If we used a acrylic stucco that will truly waterproof the mgo, but its not breathable and if water gets behind there somehow it would be hard to dryout. The brick would wick water in and usually required an airgap behind to insulate and dry out, if in direct contact with the mgo i imagine it would'nt wick into the mgo?

scottishjohn User is Offline

Basic Member

Posts:109

25 Sep 2018 01:27 PM
nope mgo is waterproof and in florida you have no frost ----we have frost and it is no problem . you even use mgo sips for basement construction in the USA - bottom line is the better you insulate your house the cheaper it is to heat or cool it --outside influences are minimal building code in scotland now is 140mm of pur foam minmum, buld a sip house and wether you want it hot or cold it will be cheap to do -compared to anything else --presuming you can stop your wife from opening the windows and use a balanced heat/cold recovery ventilation system If you did it ICF the foam insulation both sides of the concrete will insulate you from outside just as well --so maybe better choice for hurricane zone-not termite problem either -std in uk is 70mm both side of concrete

scottishjohn User is Offline

Basic Member

Posts:109

25 Sep 2018 01:29 PM
mgo /cement panels is what they use in tropical countries because of no insect problem even with high humdiity --and there you want air con all the time

cmkavala

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25 Sep 2018 06:13 PM
scottish john ,found the exact opposite to be true.....this is from the James Hardie website ........"There are no approved governing criteria for MgO/MgCl exterior products (used primarily for soffi t, panel, trim and siding) with ICC-ES. Therefore, MgO/MgCl exterior products are not code approved. CONFUSING CLAIMS Some MgO/MgCl material suppliers indicate that their products have passed certain ASTM International (formerly known as the American Society for Testing and Materials) tests. An examination of the claims shows that some of the tests apply to other product categories or functions (for example, assessed for interior application but recommended for external use) while important tests for quality and application suitability, including moisture resistance, are lacking " it has been my own personal experience that MGO absorbs water and when it reaches maximum saturation point then leaches out

Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />

cmkavala

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25 Sep 2018 06:15 PM
> scottish john ,this is from the James Hardie website ........"There are no approved governing criteria for MgO/MgCl exterior products (used primarily for soffi t, panel, trim and siding) with ICC-ES. Therefore, MgO/MgCl exterior products are not code approved. CONFUSING CLAIMS Some MgO/MgCl material suppliers indicate that their products have passed certain ASTM International (formerly known as the American Society for Testing and Materials) tests. An examination of the claims shows that some of the tests apply to other product categories or functions (for example, assessed for interior application but recommended for external use) while important tests for quality and application suitability, including moisture resistance, are lacking " it has been my own personal experience that MGO absorbs water and when it reaches maximum saturation point then leaches out

Chris Kavala<br>[email protected]<br>1-877-321-SIPS<br />

FLMike

New Member

Posts:11

25 Sep 2018 07:49 PM
Chris, that is technically correct but that sounds like they mean using MGO in the raw for siding etc. which doesn't sounds like a good idea. I imagine MGO board is approved for code as supplied in a wall sip as long as there is a coating over it like acrylic stucco.

FLMike

New Member

Posts:11

25 Sep 2018 08:05 PM
Bottom line for me is if it looks like it will be too much trouble to get a sip house approved and built to code then i would do a stick frame and spray foam it before the drywall goes on. I'll have to talk directly to some manufacturers when I am closer to pulling the trigger i guess.