MGO SIP nightmare help pls.
Last Post 11 May 2022 03:16 PM by cmkavala. 50 Replies.
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icfboundUser is Offline
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18 Feb 2019 04:57 PM
That's the risk with SIPs. The integrity of your wall structure is is totally dependent on the glue holding the panel to the insulation for the life of the building. The odds of that happening approach zero as you move from steel to OSB and to MGO. A bad manufacturer or a bad lot can get you to this sad saga quickly.
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18 Feb 2019 09:15 PM
I'm not sure that really applies to this person so I'm not sure why your mentioning it.

Delamination of a SIP to the core is extremely rare. And MGO panels are even less likely to delaminate from age or stress. The mode of failure for MGO panel is almost always catastrophic failure of the core (it splits in half due the skins exceeding stress).
The website DeepDyve has the largest collection of long and short term testing of SIP's and MGO SIPS. I've read at least a hundred of them and non of them failed or had risk of delamination. Despite some of these studies even trying to get delamination after accelerated weathering freeze/thaw cycles.
The very few cases that did have de-lamination where caused by rotten OSB caused by poor install. Its not really the same true delamintion...as the glue does not fail....the OSB just rotts away.

The risk to original poster is not delamination but the large cracks in skin which could allow the core to fail upon compression.

But throwing out "de-lamination" concerns seems like fear mongering from an ICF advocate.
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18 Feb 2019 10:30 PM
I am not an ICF advocate although I seriously considered it several years ago for a vacation home in AZ. In the end I went with CMU and exterior stone facing and then did a 2x6 interior wall separated from it by 20” and filled with rock wall I got for free to get a R60+ wall. My comments relative to SIPs are from being involved with many law suits against manufacturers and the companies that badly install them. Like Geothermal industry, lots of problems in the SIP industry and most of them are delamination related after about 10 years...and mostly because moisture problems with OSB and especially MGO. Steel SIPs have a much better track record but there still have been bad lots that didn’t get solvent cleaned before the adhesion process and then failed. I am sure there are SIPs that will last forever, but the reality is somewhere between that and this sad saga. Insurance company won’t help you when SIPs fail and SIP manufacturers and companies that install them disappear like a fart in the wind making them challenging to sue and actually get settlement. Feel free to ignore my comments.
CONservative: The first three letters are all you need to know to fully understand this Republican.
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Racist: A person who believes their race is superior to another race.
<br /> <br />
Religion: The deception of suckers who fear nonexistence to believe in a nonexistent supreme being and to adhere to false doctrine to control and exploit them.
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Republican: A greedy, racist, sexist person who skillfully uses deception, hate, fear and religion to control and exploit suckers to gain personal wealth and power to benefit themselves while using government to limit the freedoms, safety and pursuit of happiness of others.
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Sexist: A person who assaults, discriminates, intimidates or stereotypes the opposite sex.
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Sucker: A weak minded person who has been brain washed and who usually lacks education and critical thinking skills allowing them to be easily deceived. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGAqYNFQdZ4">Watch...Don't Be a Sucker!</a>
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bradbaum50User is Offline
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18 Feb 2019 11:14 PM
Do you have a link to any of those lawsuits? Nearly all court cases have a public docket sheet.

I'd truly be interested to read one and it's finding. I am not aware of a single well documented case of delamination. Every case I've seen was the typical OSB damage by vapor transmission in poorly sealed seams.

And if you have a case or article regarding an MGO panel case all the better.

If you just know the party names (ie Walter v company a) I'm happy to do the digging in public case files.
icfboundUser is Offline
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19 Feb 2019 12:11 AM
Non-disclosure agreements...so unfortunately you are not going to find much in public database...
CONservative: The first three letters are all you need to know to fully understand this Republican.
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Racist: A person who believes their race is superior to another race.
<br /> <br />
Religion: The deception of suckers who fear nonexistence to believe in a nonexistent supreme being and to adhere to false doctrine to control and exploit them.
<br /> <br />
Republican: A greedy, racist, sexist person who skillfully uses deception, hate, fear and religion to control and exploit suckers to gain personal wealth and power to benefit themselves while using government to limit the freedoms, safety and pursuit of happiness of others.
<br /> <br />
Sexist: A person who assaults, discriminates, intimidates or stereotypes the opposite sex.
<br /> <br />
Sucker: A weak minded person who has been brain washed and who usually lacks education and critical thinking skills allowing them to be easily deceived. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGAqYNFQdZ4">Watch...Don't Be a Sucker!</a>
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Trumpian: A narcissistic and skilled con artist Republican who is highly attractive to suckers and uses Fascist and Nazi tactics and commits traitorous acts to undermine democracy to gain personal wealth and power.
bradbaum50User is Offline
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19 Feb 2019 01:47 AM
Hmmm, that is odd indeed.

While NDAs can cover the settlement etc, the filing of any and all lawsuit is always public by its very nature unless perhaps it's a matter of national security.

Eitherway, the search for a documented case delaminating SIP panels continues.....
icfboundUser is Offline
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19 Feb 2019 02:21 AM
If you were involved in the case and the settlement has a NDA you can’t disclose any aspect of the case. And good attorneys minimize what is submitted for public records. If you are a good sleuth you might find something but you likely won't discover the details you seek and you won’t be getting it from me.
CONservative: The first three letters are all you need to know to fully understand this Republican.
<br /> <br />
Racist: A person who believes their race is superior to another race.
<br /> <br />
Religion: The deception of suckers who fear nonexistence to believe in a nonexistent supreme being and to adhere to false doctrine to control and exploit them.
<br /> <br />
Republican: A greedy, racist, sexist person who skillfully uses deception, hate, fear and religion to control and exploit suckers to gain personal wealth and power to benefit themselves while using government to limit the freedoms, safety and pursuit of happiness of others.
<br /> <br />
Sexist: A person who assaults, discriminates, intimidates or stereotypes the opposite sex.
<br /> <br />
Sucker: A weak minded person who has been brain washed and who usually lacks education and critical thinking skills allowing them to be easily deceived. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGAqYNFQdZ4">Watch...Don't Be a Sucker!</a>
<br /> <br />
Trumpian: A narcissistic and skilled con artist Republican who is highly attractive to suckers and uses Fascist and Nazi tactics and commits traitorous acts to undermine democracy to gain personal wealth and power.
AlbertamikeUser is Offline
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19 Feb 2019 07:26 PM
MGO problems are new to Canada and the USA, but has problems in other countries Germany, Denmark, Australia, Germany https://ing.dk/artikel/efter-ny-mgo-kendelse-mt-hoejgaard-hensaetter-400-mio-kr-erstatninger-214490 Australia Condo Complex https://www.9news.com.au/national/2016/08/11/19/33/faulty-tower-apartment-owners-suing-lemon-property-developer-for-20-million http://acboa.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/CCMCMgOBoardAdvisory-March2018.pdf
AlbertamikeUser is Offline
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19 Feb 2019 07:44 PM
But do not get me wrong not all MGO is created equal there is a few good products that dont absorb moisture as readily, but do your home work prior lots of it. over 2000 china manufactures and only 10% are good for sips or any construction.
bradbaum50User is Offline
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19 Feb 2019 10:42 PM
For sure, MGO is still the wild west. But just like you can get a nice iPhone from China you can also get some crappy knockoffs.

To the orginal poster, I would recommend a good moisture block like sherwin loxon. Then I'd put a hard siding over the batons like LP Smartside (James Hardie is nice but heavier and we don't want more weight) . That should create an air channel between the siding and the MGO which should really help with the solar heat gain and rain driven moisture. Combine that with some internal framing and you may be ok short term... 12-24mon while a long term plan can be made/forced with the vendor.
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19 Feb 2019 11:56 PM
Unfortunately, the OP's home is a total demolition and rebuild. Once you start seeing cracks in MGO, it is all over and covering them up with siding won't prevent a catastrophic failure.
CONservative: The first three letters are all you need to know to fully understand this Republican.
<br /> <br />
Racist: A person who believes their race is superior to another race.
<br /> <br />
Religion: The deception of suckers who fear nonexistence to believe in a nonexistent supreme being and to adhere to false doctrine to control and exploit them.
<br /> <br />
Republican: A greedy, racist, sexist person who skillfully uses deception, hate, fear and religion to control and exploit suckers to gain personal wealth and power to benefit themselves while using government to limit the freedoms, safety and pursuit of happiness of others.
<br /> <br />
Sexist: A person who assaults, discriminates, intimidates or stereotypes the opposite sex.
<br /> <br />
Sucker: A weak minded person who has been brain washed and who usually lacks education and critical thinking skills allowing them to be easily deceived. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGAqYNFQdZ4">Watch...Don't Be a Sucker!</a>
<br /> <br />
Trumpian: A narcissistic and skilled con artist Republican who is highly attractive to suckers and uses Fascist and Nazi tactics and commits traitorous acts to undermine democracy to gain personal wealth and power.
bradbaum50User is Offline
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20 Feb 2019 12:04 PM
What I suggested was to reframe with 2*6 on the interior side from basement to roof and to cover the exterior until better plans can be made.

Reframing on the inside is a tried and true method for structurally deficient buildings. The exterior MGO panels become insulation only. Of course the MGO does still have some strength in it...the house hasn't fallen yet.

My guess is if the OP was in a place to just demolition and start over he wouldn't be on a forum asking for ideas.

Even if a full tear down is the ultimate answer, most homeowners will need to spend at least a few years fighting it in court or with insurance. In the meantime they need a safe place to live at the cheapest possible remedy. And most people don't have a second home.

A few years ago I did a house flop for a 1900 farm house and the stone foundation had completely fallen away. The house had sagged feet and when we started removing wall plaster the walls dropped a literal 6“. It was actually being held up by plaster.

But a couple of steel post and beams in the basement, timber frames on the first floor and a nice floor jack and the house will stand for another 100years.

icfboundUser is Offline
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20 Feb 2019 03:52 PM
Well that's the thing. There is no way of knowing how much structural strength is left in the building. It could literally collapse at any time. A construction crew would be risking their life doing what you suggest. And does it make any sense to throw more money at this? Yeah I feel very sad for this family but I would hate for something even worse happen. Their best hope is a legal remedy and perhaps help from their government which is currently the only one left in North America that cares for the general welfare of it’s citizens.
CONservative: The first three letters are all you need to know to fully understand this Republican.
<br /> <br />
Racist: A person who believes their race is superior to another race.
<br /> <br />
Religion: The deception of suckers who fear nonexistence to believe in a nonexistent supreme being and to adhere to false doctrine to control and exploit them.
<br /> <br />
Republican: A greedy, racist, sexist person who skillfully uses deception, hate, fear and religion to control and exploit suckers to gain personal wealth and power to benefit themselves while using government to limit the freedoms, safety and pursuit of happiness of others.
<br /> <br />
Sexist: A person who assaults, discriminates, intimidates or stereotypes the opposite sex.
<br /> <br />
Sucker: A weak minded person who has been brain washed and who usually lacks education and critical thinking skills allowing them to be easily deceived. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGAqYNFQdZ4">Watch...Don't Be a Sucker!</a>
<br /> <br />
Trumpian: A narcissistic and skilled con artist Republican who is highly attractive to suckers and uses Fascist and Nazi tactics and commits traitorous acts to undermine democracy to gain personal wealth and power.
AlbertamikeUser is Offline
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21 Feb 2019 12:56 AM
Even the basement floor is MGO but has footings 8ft centers strips to support but they dropped 3/8in between the footings so lots of floor leveler was used, and a layer of 3/4ply The Government is going no ware because it has a Engineered stamp so they say my only option is to take the Engineer to court. According to local and provincial building safety division, they did tell me off the record keep close eye on changes use caution. I just picked up 2x6 and going to corner angle brace the buildings from the exterior. my friend is in same build and $70,000 legal and not over yet.
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24 Feb 2019 08:47 PM
Update on lack of progress

A special thanks to all replies and assistance especially Kevin

Local building department= claims built to code because engineer stamped drawings, but no inspection by the Engineer or Rep of, They say to take Engineer to Court

Alberta Building Code department= Claims no responsibility due to the date of Building approval was 6 months prior to there update on sip code but completion was after the fact code only applies on date of application. they instructed me to Contact APEGA (Alberta Engineer governing body)

APEGA= The most helpful, They are coming out for a site visit next month when it warms up. They can not financially help but if they find wrong doing can prevent this from happening to others.

My Dads Corporate construction Insurance (Dads Company listed as the builder)= sent info to an investigating company who completed there report, but his insurance since November has no response and working on complete avoidance claiming they are waiting on the report, but I have confirmation of report completion in Nov 2018 and couriered to there office. They are scared i think trying to figure how to avoid helping.

Had a Meeting with a Corporate Lawyer in Calgary with 6 other individuals with the same build but the cost is to great for us even as a group. one individual had a claim started with him but is over 50,000.00 and sip company and Engineer side stepping trying to run him out of money before it goes to a Judge.





ConleeHUser is Offline
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10 Mar 2019 10:32 PM
We are very sorry to see and read about your experience.
We have been intrigued with the concept of MGO sips and have considered it for our future home. As we are also from Alberta it is very useful information knowing what you have experience. We are very thankful that you are sharing it with others to help prevent it from happening again.
Like you and others have mentioned, "not all MGO is created equal" it makes a person really weight out their risks and or potential gains.
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11 Mar 2019 12:55 PM
ConleeH, Problems like this are not limited to the MGO industry it happens with OSB and other laminated panels also. That is why it is so important that you know what to look for when selecting a SIP's provider. I truly believe that SIP's are the only way to build, and I have devoted my entire professional career to being involved with the industry. When you are ready to build your dream home just be ready to do some research and select a reputable manufacturer. There are several good ones out there so you should be able to get a few prices for your project to compare. Kevin Casey
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19 Jul 2019 12:40 PM
Who made the SIP? It looks like 8 mm MGO board, is that correct? I do not understand the large gaps between the panels? It looks like they were not sealed correctly before the battens were installed? I can see exposed lumber in many of the joints. It looks like the joints in the garage were left unfinished and not caulked on the interior? What is protecting the wood joints from the cold air with those large gaps other than a batten strip which is not airtight? It looks like from the areas board was removed by the inspector moisture testing the lumber, that many gaps were not filled with spray foam insulation during the installation? I assume you are heating the inside of the building? What is keeping the heat from escaping out between these gaps in the system? It looks like this structure was not properly sealed at the windows, at the doors, between the panels, etc. and that this structure is moving all over the place, leaking air, hot inside mixing with cold outside air causing condensation? I see panels being set on the floor plate with no spray foam being used to seal and eliminate air gaps in the system. Look at the picture after painting at the floor plate on the outside. The MGO has deteriorated and you can see the moisture leaking out and down the wood plate. This is a leak at the SIP floorplate, hot air mixing with cold air which is causing condensation and deterioration of the system. That is an installation issue. Look at the 45 degree cracks at the corners of the 1st level panels. Many engineering and building installation errors in this structure as well as what could be deficient MGO board? I do not understand the framing around the windows and doors, the bucks should be inside the panel? It looks like they just added a nailer at the panel spline for the window / door and covered it with board and cut the SIP around the opening? This structure needs to be properly sealed and the calculations for proper fresh air ventilation need to be reviewed to ensure proper ventilation is occuring. You could write a book about all of the issues with this structure, many problems, allot more than just a bad MGO SIP.If you can resolve all of the air leaks and solve any structural issues, I would use the product "Stucco Flex" for sealing and finishing the exterior MGO system. Check out their website, this product might be of help once you get the other issues resolved.
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19 Jul 2019 12:58 PM
This structure could very well need to be demolished, but just because MGO cracks on a SIP does not mean catastrophic failure will occur with the structure or the SIP. All structures can crack, masonry,concrete, they all move. What is the load, if any on the panel? Not all panels in the structure are supporting loads. Based on the pictures, there are LVL's, post and other structural framing members supporting loads. It may be possible to add additional structural support to this structure in some locations in order to avoid demolition of the structure? I feel bad for the Owner and its too bad for the SIP industry when things like this happen, it makes the technology look bad, but a poorly designed and installed structure, regardless of which system is used to construct it can have many of the same issues. Best of wishes for a positive outcome.
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08 Apr 2020 03:41 AM
I tried to PM you but I won’t go through. Can you on me with your number I’d like to talk to you we are weeks away from ordering system or our house build but I think I’m dealing with the same manufacturer you used
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