joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
 |
| 07 May 2012 10:08 AM |
|
Air source heat pumps including ducted and unducted minisplits are moving up the food chain in useful applications.
Unfortunately without a dedicated forum there is nothing to attract experienced pros to contribute their 2 cents, so most of the discussion about them is limited to contractors and homeowners who have anecdotal experience with them.
The abscence of a dedicated forum frequently brings the discussion to the geo forum where geo pros have strong opinions often at odds with air source proponents.
What is lost is the real world experience of contractors with many installations under their belts who could share both success stories and pitfalls as well as thoughts on design and applications (which some seem to think is universal). There is also no real professional advice available for troubleshooting.
With lower lock-out temps and variable capacity technology, these heat pumps will be useful in more applications than ever before but the only advice available here is from internet researchers (who don't seek out the poor outcomes of misapplications) or proponents of other technologies. |
|
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
|
|
|
|
ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
|
| 07 May 2012 10:57 AM |
|
There is also no real professional advice available for troubleshooting. There are plenty of Internet resources available for refrigeration and related technologies if you need to troubleshoot something. GBT is doing a great job in enabling people to discuss the relative merits of different approaches to building technology from the "green" angle. We don't need a dedicated forum or a "pro" to dominate the discussion with their brand of income-driven self-interests. limited to contractors and homeowners who have anecdotal experience with them. Feel free to continue to provide actual data in a search for the "answer". |
|
|
|
|
Rosalinda
Basic Member
Posts:353
|
| 10 May 2012 04:55 PM |
|
I think a Air Source Heat Pump Forum is a good idea and hope GBT adds one. |
|
| Sum total of my experience - Designed, GCed and built my own home, hybrid - stick built & modular on FPSF. 2798 ft2 2 story, propane fired condensing HWH DIY designed and installed radiant heat in GF. $71.20/ft2 completely furnished and finished, 5Star plus eStar rated and NAHB Gold certified |
|
|
knotET
New Member
Posts:89
|
| 11 May 2012 01:04 AM |
|
Howdy:
R: agreed and the data formatted forum has begun (hah!) with a 4 year history at green building planning Aiq thread, for all JUST AirHtPumps.
J: in private messages there is indicated by others that there IS pro tech's (many) available to these recent threads , but just on-looking. If we can but continue warm and friendlier appearances, what as ICFH notes so clearly, population will grow ! (you knew that anyways)
Yellow flag to "is nothing" . So I will encourage more and adapt to a more readable friendlier-to-the reader outlining and sentences, and shorts.
Sugg/OPINION:
I think DAN1 could gather more of the past links, even though things like 'tepid' need to be made clear. I noted some inaccurate confusion posted . I looked up the definition, and waited to see how close the thread would coincide there with all the definition. Pros out there have experience with modulating blowers for instance, holding nice warmer temps , beyond the well known less efficiencies (mute pointing's).
Throw in questions about them thar Ht-Pumpers.
Just like trying to get a deposit on a sale... with a 'warm-up'. That is only going to help, I have reason to believe.
Sugg2)
Folks and pros will look for them at "residential" and "comm" and "planing" -forums' sub forums. A sign-post could be appropriately stuck in GEOTHERMAL to re-direct. Maybe I just will do that in 2 days...
T's4this, too.
|
|
|
|
|
jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
|
| 13 May 2012 10:06 AM |
|
Since the choice is so often between geo and air source, separating them will only make comparisons harder. Ie, "I went to the geo forum and everyone said geo was best and then I went to the air source forum and everyone said air was best" (the correct answer is "it depends"). If a pro sells only one and can't tolerate the discussion of the other, let him not participate. There are other sites where pros control the conversations according to their business interests. |
|
|
|
|
knotET
New Member
Posts:89
|
| 13 May 2012 12:11 PM |
|
Posted By jonr on 13 May 2012 10:06 AM
Since the choice is so often between geo and air source, separating them will only make comparisons harder. Ie, "I went to the geo forum and everyone said geo was best and then I went to the air source forum and everyone said air was best" (the correct answer is "it depends")
There now IS an air only for comparing just Air:Air with 30- 40% "free" Ex (Energy Exchange Allowance) from the air , and better super-sized Ex coils, different areas may need more about their calculating things like savings, now and when gas catches up in 2-8 years with inflationary standards from this 10 year low. A very old thread did not include TOTAL transport/service of either gas or electric in billing comparisons and missed the real % of savings on the dollars. So go ahead and throw good questions out. You seem more than capable of being objective in so many posts. Friendly approach asking what do you mean? without coded messaging questions, "methinks", is how to bring/share an agreement with 2/3 buying customers. C U there ! |
|
|
|
|
Dana1
Senior Member
Posts:6991
|
| 15 May 2012 05:56 PM |
|
Posted By jonr on 13 May 2012 10:06 AM
Since the choice is so often between geo and air source, separating them will only make comparisons harder. Ie, "I went to the geo forum and everyone said geo was best and then I went to the air source forum and everyone said air was best" (the correct answer is "it depends"). If a pro sells only one and can't tolerate the discussion of the other, let him not participate. There are other sites where pros control the conversations according to their business interests.
It's almost never a simple as comparing air-source to geo, where air-source always wins on price, geo wins on efficiency (and cold-weather capacity), and the price of electricity varies. With me it's more of how it breaks down using highest-efficiency ductless air source + major improvement of the building envelopes compared to the cost of geo. The availability of subsidies for deep energy retrofits vs. geo vs. other always muddies the water too. In my climate and state the high subsidy for PV solar also gets thrown into the mix, making it even harder to sort out the fine lines of separation. So far on projects I've been directly or indirectly involved with in climate zone 5, whenever the heat load is under 2 tons and ductless can handle the load, ductless wins, but for larger homes with, bigger heat loads with higher-costs to get the heat load into cheap & easy ductless range, geo wins. But it's never crystal clear. In climate zone 4 it's harder to make the financial/efficiency case for geo, but it can boil down to the aesthetics of ductless. So, while a separate forum for air-source might still be of interest, the full discussion would still be happening on a number of forums. There is a lot going on out there beyond North America that I only WISH were making it to these shore. In Europe there is a wide range of air-to-hydronic systems available, with a variety of refrigerant & compressor types too, which would broaden the range of options that might be appropriate in US climate zones 3,4 & 5 (or even zone 6. I find it very interesting that in cool-weather Sweden (US climate zone-6 chilly on the northern half), air source heat pumps now dominate the heat pump market for space heating that had been an all-geo show as recently as a decade ago. In Asia something like 90% of the home HVAC market is being met mini-splits & multi-splits, even in colder countries like Korea & Japan. This technology has been around for a long time, but in N.America larger homes with crummy code-min building envelopes aren't all well suited to point-source heating the way smaller and more appropriately laid out Korean and Japanese homes are. In Korea & Japan point-source heating has been the standard even before better, lower-U/higher-R buildings became standard. With higher-R North American homes of not-huge size it's now possible (and sometimes preferable) to take a Japanese or Korean ductless/point-source approach, even in climates that it would not have worked even 10 years ago. So yes, there's room for a mostly air-source discussion- it's an evolving scenario in most of the world, but until there's better awareness and availability of the goods in the US & Canada it could be a pretty limited discussion, despite the rapidly growing Asian invasion of high performance ductless. The BPA pilot study is still not on the radar screens of most designers even the northwest, yet it's being watched fairly closely by many high-performance home builders and Net Zero Energy home crowd as an alternative to bulk-fuel stoves or higher-cost geo. |
|
|
|
|
joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
|
| 16 Oct 2012 09:07 AM |
|
So months later and no response.
Just thought I'd revisit this in hopes of any reaction from mods.
A few replies:
"There are plenty of Internet resources available for refrigeration and related technologies if you need to troubleshoot something."....ICF I dunno if you noticed but lots of people come to the geo forum for help with a troubled system. Many find the site through a keyword search. I think a minisplit or ASHP forum would attract more to the conversation and more expertise.
We have helped folks shop, repair and even get a free replacement geo on these forums. To minimize that or suggest that people should seek help elsewhere insults those that help and ignores those who find it here.
I don't see the conversation of one tech vs the other limited by a second forum Jonr I see it enhanced- especially if we attract pros who use the technology often.
I think it is glaringly obvious that the lions share of pro experience with air source heat pumps is by the geo advocates here and it is clearly not our primary technology. I can't imagine why anyone would think the addition of pros who favor the technology would be a draw back. Nor can I imagine why anyone would expect an ASHP pro to hang out on these forums when their technology is apparently not worthy of notice or it's own sub category.
Those who favor ASHPs should favor an ASHP forum. |
|
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
|
|
ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
|
| 16 Oct 2012 03:23 PM |
|
Those who favor ASHPs should favor an ASHP forum. I favor the best unit for the job. And therein lies the value of GBT. It is a forum to discuss green and emerging technologies and the relative merits thereof. Compartmentalizing the categories too much accomplishes nothing. Heat pump repair forums exist. Geo repair forums exist. This is still the best place for people who are considering new building projects and want to hear the pros and cons of various approaches. |
|
|
|
|
ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
|
| 16 Oct 2012 03:29 PM |
|
I think it is glaringly obvious that the lions share of pro experience with air source heat pumps is by the geo advocates here and it is clearly not our primary technology So all this is because you want to see more "pros" who have primarily ASHP knowledge and little or no geo experience?? I can't think of any threads or issues where that would have been any use. Can you tell us what the REAL reason is that you keep asking for this? |
|
|
|
|
joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
|
| 16 Oct 2012 03:42 PM |
|
Something that will attract google with keyword search "air source heat pump" or "mini split" etc. most assuredly would accomplish much. I found this forum years ago googling geothermal afterall- you can debate whether that was fortunate or not  I too favor the best technology for the job, but am not expert in all. It would be nice to explore ASHP applications with experts- as I do radiant questions with our colleagues in that biz (on that forum). ICF and SIPs are often competitive approaches to a job and are not lumped into the same forum. Isn't this compartmentalizing. |
|
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
|
|
ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
|
| 18 Oct 2012 08:46 AM |
|
Something that will attract google with keyword search "air source heat pump" or "mini split" etc. most assuredly would accomplish much. I'm just not following the logic there. Google already crawls the content for keywords. Separating out the categories doesn't change that. but am not expert in all. It would be nice to explore ASHP applications with experts I am sorry I am not following the logic here, either. You want some ASHP experts to teach you about (specific troubleshooting?) for particular brands and models? It appears to me that ASHPs are just basic refrigeration tech. I have a harder time finding service techs who understand oil burners. As for theory and operation of ASHP units, you'd have a hard time finding new posters with a better grasp of that than some of the people who regularly comment here on the strengths and weaknesses of ASHPs. |
|
|
|
|
joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
|
| 19 Oct 2012 10:40 AM |
|
Posted By ICFHybrid on 18 Oct 2012 08:46 AM
As for theory and operation of ASHP units, you'd have a hard time finding new posters with a better grasp of that than some of the people who regularly comment here on the strengths and weaknesses of ASHPs. Oh I understand your position now. We don't need to attract pros with intimate knowledge of the virtues and short-comings of ASHPs or to help people with questions: because we already have you  Afterall what could someone who installs these things everyday contribute that you haven't already explained?  Look we don't have to agree on this. Myself and several others hoped to see an ASHP forum. You happen to be a very vocal amongst those that don't. Why is it so important to nit pik my reasons? Or imply alterior motives? I'll be in favor, you be opposed and we'll leave it at that. |
|
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
|
|
ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
|
| 19 Oct 2012 11:27 AM |
|
Now you are just making personal attacks again. I haven't ever held myself up as an expert on any of these things. There are regular contributors that are well able to comment on ASHP theory and operation.
You may feel nit picked, but what I have tried to do time and again is give you an opportunity to explain your reasoning and you have been unable to do so. It's that kind of situation which leads one to think about ulterior motives.
I doubt very much that an ASHP Forum will happen unless you provide a good argument as to what the need really is. Try again? |
|
|
|
|
jokin
Basic Member
Posts:105
|
| 19 Nov 2012 11:58 PM |
|
I'm with Joe! I would love an ASHP forum.
I followed this geo forum ever since I stumbled onto it via a google search in 2007?, anyway I've learned 99% of what I know about geo from the geo forum guys like joe, engineer, Dana1, waterpirate, docjenser, a10.... and some many others. Recently I helped someone design a heating system for a small relatively tight house. Owner didn't have a basement and saw that due to the layout the ductwork was going to be expensive/ugly... this pushed me in the direction of minisplits. I ended up with (2) single head Mitsubishi Hyperheat units (small 1 ton models), it was a huge stretch for me, to advise someone to rely on an airsource heat pump in a heating dominated climate... but I knew the specs from commercial side experience and had some limited info from this geo forum, I also searched high and low online for more information but found little to none... except for some very light weight articles written by journalists who had no technical background but were only were impressed with something that air conditioned the outside during the winter to provide heating inside. I was looking all over to find information on how others were placing the units, how they ran the units, what success they were having (or failures), how they were making sure there was air circulation, how they were handling OA/ventilation, etc. I couldn't find anything even CLOSE to the wealth of geo specific info at this one forum.
There has to be people out there with similar knowledge/experience with ASHP's that are equally willing to share their knowledge and mentor others.... but currently there isn't a place for them to easily exchange ideas (or I would have found it), or for interested parties to easily find the professionals to contact them or just silently learn from them (as I and presumably many others have done so often on this forum). A dedicated ASHP forum at this site could be that place and in the process expose that many more people to the other valuable information at the GB site... from debunking energy efficiency myths to best building practices.
I'm not married to geo thermal, just because I have a DIY one heating my house, it was just clearly the best option to keep us comfortable for the lowest cost (life cycle cost) at the time we had to make the decision. Things change over time and for others that rely on my advice or even for myself when I someday need to make a replacement/upgrade/revamp decision, I would love to be able to drawn on a database of substantive ASHP conversation at this site.
|
|
|
|
|
joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
|
| 21 Nov 2012 09:59 AM |
|
well articulated jokin. thank you.
unfortunately by failing to weigh in on this the site mods apperently he nixed the idea. |
|
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
|
|
ICFHybrid
Veteran Member
Posts:3039
|
| 22 Nov 2012 10:56 AM |
|
All the issues mentioned (placement, air circulation, ventilation, etc) are issues integral to Green Building and have been discussed in detail relative to minisplits and airsource heat pumps. They should also be familiar to traditional HVAC professionals. |
|
|
|
|