Hello Everyone:

I'm new to this site. Glad I found you. Hopefully I can find some answers here.

We had a Bosch TA061 5-ton system installed in February and it's a nightmare.

The low pulsing from the Copeland compressor is driving us nuts! The Bosch rep says the noise is "within tolerance". Their literature boasts "quiet operation". Their tech says 60+ decibel is quiet. It might be quiet compared to others, but from my reading, people consider an environment quiet around 40 dec.

My installer has put in more than 30 hours trying to attenuate the low throbbing as well as the high-pitched whine coming through the registers (not compressor related) without great success. He's replaced metal duct with flexduct; installed insulation into the supply plenum and canvas "breaks" between the plenum and the ductwork which has reduced the vibration into the ducts, but the noise travels up anyway.

What we want is what we had before. The only noise coming from the registers was the sound of air traveling through them. No throbbing, thank you.

Unfortunately, our basement ceiling is drywalled so I can't get to the ductwork to put sound insulation inside it. Maybe I need to tear out the ceiling and insulate the ducts. A big, messy job.

Our next step is to yank the compressor out of the unit and put it into the garage, which is a run of 50'. Also, add a muffler and anti-vibration hardware to the lines leaving the compressor.

Of course, Bosch says that will void the warranty on this $6,000 unit. I'm between a rock and a hard place because we already spent $3,500 in excavation costs for the geo pit, $1,000 to upgrade electrical service and a couple thousand for installing this unit. And $10,000 for the new backup propane generator we need for this new geo-thermal.

My wife's ready to just yank the thing out and torch $25,000 and go back to a regular propane furnace like we had.

Does anyone have any better ideas than to yank the compressor and void the warranty?

How can people be OK with this throbbing, pulsing base note added to their lives? It's like have a kid blasting his Bib Bass car stereo next to you at a red traffic light, except the light never changes!

How could Bosch or any other company think it's a good idea to put a compressor into a home? Are they installing 5-ton air conditioners inside houses now? No, they are not because compressors belong outside!

Did you connect this new 5 ton geo heat pump to existing duct work designed for a propane furnace? If so, the duct work is likely undersized for the heat pump.

This may be silly but also maybe overlooked. Did the installer remove the shipping bolts? A proper installed geothermal system should be very quiet.

"How can people be OK with this throbbing, pulsing base note added to their lives?"
They are not okay with what you describe. They have their equipment installed by pros so they don't have this noise.
From your description your guy did not add canvass connectors until after noise complaints. Between that and the pricing you mentioned I'm guessing you hired any ole tin knocker and not a geo pro.
Please tell us what your return air duct dimensions are and what your geo is sitting on.
joe

"My installer has put in more than 30 hours trying to attenuate the low throbbing as well as the high-pitched whine coming through the registers (not compressor related) without great success. He's replaced metal duct with flexduct; installed insulation into the supply plenum and canvas "breaks" between the plenum and the ductwork which has reduced the vibration into the ducts, but the noise travels up anyway"

This paragraph is a bit disturbing. With the exception of He's replaced metal duct with flexduct, this should have been done at install. There should be NOTHING solid between the unit and the structure. Ductwork, electrical or plumbing.

arkie6 is, more than likely, correct about the duct size. If the ducts are too small, the blower ramps up to push the air into the  home and the compressor will work harder because there isn't enough air moving across the coil. PROPER design and install are needed so the unit can do it's job.

Can you post photos of the install?

Bergy

PS
You should start your own thread

Noisy systems can sometimes be very hard to figure out the source. The first step is shutoff the compressor and run only the blower. As mentioned duct sizing plays a huge role in air delivery and noise related issues.If the static is too high,then any air leakage can create whistling and whining noises.Compressor generated noises are usually in a lower octave band and will generate a rumbling or pulsating type of noise.The refrigerant charge should be checked first along with shipping bolts.Then close attention should be paid too isolating unit from floor ,walls,etc so unit can not create a harmonic effect to the building structure.Post some pctures of the install.

Hello Arkie6:
Thanks for the reply.  Yes, it was existing ductwork but my HVAC guy is a 20+-year friend and did the calculations.  I trust him and he spent a lot of time measuring and calculating before we decided to go ahead.  Also, it's not like I can do anything about the ductwork at this point without ripping out the entire basement drywalled ceiling and trying to install bigger ductwork.  I'm stuck with the system.  We've decided to relocate the compressor 50' away to the garage on the 18th (while I'm out of town) and enclose it in a cement block housing.  Hope that works.
David

Thanks for your reply, Calladrilling.

Not a silly question at all.  It's the first question the Bosch rep asked my installer.  Yes, we did remove the shipping bolts.  When you say it should be very quiet, does that mean it can be as quiet as a propane furnace when all you hear is the gas igniting and then the fan moving the air?

David

Good points, Bergy.  My guy should have used flexduct originally.  So if you're right and the ducts are too small, what solutions are there?  I'll get some photos and post soon.  Thanks.
David

Thanks for the reponse acwizard:

You make good points.  I've run the system without the compressor plugged in and the low throbbing goes away.  So does the high whine in the background fan noise.  I think the compressor is exacerbating/vibrating all the other parts in the unit and making them worse.  We're removing the compressor and moving it to the garage (in a concrete box) on the 18th.  I get back home on the 22nd so hopefully it'll all be fine then.  Voiding the warranty, but what the hell.  Only option left.  Can't live with the harmonics.  Refrigerant charge - shipping bolts - static pressure - all checked and approved by Bosch rep as being within tolerances.
Will post some photos soon, although a cement box isn't too interesting to see, and that's where the compressor is going.  The compressor will also have a muffler installed & antivibration dampers on the tubing leaving the compressor.  I think that covers all the bases.  Wish me luck.
Thanks.
David

Hi Joe:

Thanks for the reply.
My guy is a pro.  Been in the field 25+ years. 
The entire unit sits on a 3" tall hard plastic base provided by Bosch.  That sits on the basement concrete floor.
The return air duct is 24" x 39" x 29" as it connects to the unit.  It necks down from there to the regular return.

Well, I took pictures and put them on my desktop but don't know how to shrink them down small enough to meet the 100 kb limit at this sight.
Spent the last 10 minutes trying various stuff but am quitting for now.  Other things to do.

See you later.
David

"It necks down from there to the regular return."
OK what are the dimensions of the "regular return" that it "necks down to"?
Hint if it is a 5 ton you should have something in the neighborhood of 300 sq inches. So if the duct is lined (per manufacturer instructions that would be something in the neighborhood of 24X14.
Has your pro been in the "geo field" or hvac field, with some geo experience.

Inexplicably I have had scroll compressors run more quietly with a polarity change (installer could switch the hot wires).

I have also had a Bosch where first stage was much louder than 2nd. A compressor change might be indicated.

Are there opportunities to insulate mechanical room to better contain sound?

Hi Joe:
The regular return is 24 x 8. To compensate, we've cut a larger hole into the 24" x 39" x 29" box which attaches to the unit itself. My guy's been HVAC for the 25+ but obviously hasn't been installing geothermals the entire time. This isn't his first, I'm assured.
I'll mention the polarity change. Thanks for that. The second stage of the compressor might be a bit quieter, or the noise might just be masked by the louder fan noise at that stage. Bosch is going to give us a new compressor.
We're still going to put it in the garage and run 50' of lines to & from it to the rest of the unit because I've done all the soundproofing I can. Removed the drywall and installed Roxul soundproofing insulation; replaced the drywall with 440 soundboard and covered nearly all hard surfaces in the room with 2" thick CFAB cellulose panels from Acoustical Surfaces.com, which helped. It's a very crowded space.
Thanks again.
David

Does anyone knows of a noise level the units should run at? Bosch now claims 52 db for their new units, can't find much on other manufacturers.

Dunno Doc, but I would encourage David installer to try the new compressor in the heat pump befor the garage

Hello docjenser:
The Bosch rep who inspected our geothermal says they generate mid-60db but that the company is working to reduce it to 50db.  I was unaware they are claiming 52 dec for their new units.  My other issue is that my wife has "fox ears" and is very sensitive to noise pollution, especially low and high frequencies.  Sensitivity can be a good thing, or a curse.  In this case it's the latter, so even at 50db we don't want the noise in the house.
David

Hi Joe:

Normally I'd ask my installer to go through the trouble of replacing the compressor (which Bosch said it would provide), but neither one of us has any confidence it will be dramatically quieter. 
My wife's work spaces are directly next to the furnace room and her work requires quiet, so it's off to the garage with the compressor.
I'll let you know how it turns out.  Hopefully a happy ending, although expensive.  Work is scheduled to be done by April 24.

David

I'm afraid you will curse the day you allowed the warranty to be voided.

Make sure your contractor gets factory input about oil return to the compressor. The way the line-set is fashioned could make a big difference.

Bergy

Thanks, Bergy, I'll mention the oil return for sure.
In terms of curses, I'm already there.  My choice is void the warranty or rip the thing out and lose the $10,000 I've already got into it.  Seems to me I take the chance and cross my fingers.  My general experience with warranties is that they expire right before something breaks. 
David

That's a 10 year warranty on everything in the cabinet, you'll be voiding. If it's new and you think it's noisy what are the chances you might need to use that warranty in the future, especially once the system has been opened and the compressor replaced?

http://www.bosch-climate.us/files/201104191600460.2011.04.14_warrantygeothermal.pdf