Nice website. Do you get much traffic?

JB74,

Thanks for documenting your difficulties with the WaterFurnace units and the company.  Let us know of the final resolution.

I wonder if other WaterFurnace dealer/installers are aware that some WaterFurnace units are having problems?  Did they get prompt technical assistance from Water Furnace?  How often does a certain line of units have problems?  How well trained are the dealer/installers?  Do any of the states have "Lemon Laws" that would be applicable?

Jb74, We are sorry to hear that you have had a bad experience with WaterFurnace. We will be more than happy to look into your concerns further. Please provide your model number, serial number, and the name of the contractor you are working with. If you do not wish to post your information publicly, please feel free to send us a private message.

I'll preface with: not a WF dealer.

The single biggest failure I see is your dealer. Your dealer is blaming WF and not intervening for you or sharing in the burden. Why is your dealer not sharing in the burden? Why are you waiting days for parts? If your dealer wishes to be a distributor perhaps he should stock parts.

I recently replaced a compressor on a 3 year old unit and my customer's cost was $0. No service call, no freight fees, no R410, his turn-around time on this 6 ton compressor was over a week, not because of shipping (I purchase equipment only from companies that have local distributor support) but because he initially contacted me on Thanksgiving Day and I had a death in the family shortly thereafter.

While his experience could have been the same as yours, I am negotiating with the manufacturer and the supply house for consideration (not him).

Time and again, I'm confused when people are suprised by the short comings of their warranties. Do people often spend $35,000 without understanding the terms of the deal? (My first house was $28,000!) If your response is that you didn't know or trusted your dealer, then it is still your dealers fault.

I don't mean to sound harsh, or unsympathetic, but you started a web site with WFs name on it and their share your money was a small fraction of your dealer's cut, yet you protect the installers name.

Should you have 3 or 4 fan coils fail? No. Does WF share in the responsibility? Yes. I just don't get why they are the only ones you are ticked at.

Every major manufacturer of virtually any product has a Lemon from time to time. The difference is who you bought it from....If I get a bad tool at the big orange store, I go and get a replacement (with or with/out reciept). If I buy it from Bobs hardware, he will have me return it to the manufacturer and wait for it to be repaired and returned. In either case the manufacturer will honor their responsibility to the consumer, one dealer however will serve the client better.

I truly wish you well and won't be suprised if WF does something for you, but suggest you lean on your installer as well.

One needs to understand how the warranty works. WF covers the parts for 10 years which are defective. Then they cover the labor in form of an allowance for 10 years. So you need a new compressor, WF gives you the new compressor and a labor allowance of $380, which they think it takes a qualified technician to change it. Plus they pay for drive time, refrigerant etc.
So if your installer does not accept that and wants more from you, that is entirely his decision, not WF fault.
We do it like Joe. We honor the labor allowance, and have never ask a customer for anything above that. We deal things out with our suppliers and manufacturers, you as a customer should not have to deal with that.

Your issue sounds like a design flaw with the radiant system, since the unit runs fine in the forced air mode, but I am hesitant to diagnose your problem over the internet. You do have a buffer tank, correct? A qualified installer should be able to diagnose it quickly, and fix it. The fact that he told you to call WF is telling.
It is like your car warranty. If some thing does not work, you drop the car of at your dealer. Then the dealer fixes it, and lets you go again. Then he gets his labor allowance from the manufacturer, as well as the parts. Imagine the dealer would not be able to tell you why your car broke down, what the defect is, and then tells you to call the manufacturer if you want the repair covered. Unimaginable!
I have a Synergy 3D in my house myself. You feed it with enough water on the source and load side,within a certain temperature range, and it is happy.

I wished I could say I didn't have complaints, but my system was installed by a "geopro" dealer and I can see exactly why he targets Waterfurnace.

My system faulted last year several times. It was on electric heat during some of the coldest days of the year. I've been patient. I've been polite. I've contacted the dealer so many times he's replaced the thermostats, zone control, flushed system, etc. That was last year.

It seems when the system goes into "System On +2" the unit faults. We're back down that path as I write this. Today the Envision system (6 ton), showed "System On +2" and I knew it before I even walked down stairs. The unit was faulted -- again.

This has been going on for two years.

I feel bad for him because I am going through the same situation. It's like driving your new car to the end of the street and it stalls. You take the time to get it fixed, and then drive down the street again and it stalls. The dealer said they fixed it, but the problem never goes away. So you're left with a brand new car that needs repairs every year.

My company, and if I'm Water Furnace, I stand behind my lemons and work with those few people to get them right. That's NOT what Water Furnace has done for me. And neither has the "GEOPRO" dealer.

Lately, since I have read so many complaints about problems with geothermal that take forever to get fixed, I have been considering moving on to mini-splits.  I hate to do this since I have recommended geothermal so many times since the late 1970's.  I wonder if a problem mini-split would be easier to replace than a problem geothermal?

Posted By Alton on 21 Jan 2012 09:58 PM
Lately, since I have read so many complaints about problems with geothermal that take forever to get fixed, I have been considering moving on to mini-splits.  I hate to do this since I have recommended geothermal so many times since the late 1970's.  I wonder if a problem mini-split would be easier to replace than a problem geothermal?

I second that. The geothermal issues are rampant not only here on this forum but on other forums also. It surely does not breed confidence in the technology.

The problem with minisplits is that they lack the ability of a centrally ducted system to deliver small but necessary airflows to walk-in closets, bathrooms, commode closets, pantries, etc. Some minisplits are able to be ducted, but efficiency plummets and available static pressure is minuscule

Alton:
mini splits have the same short comings- they still require competant design, installation and service. Why in the world would anyone blame a technology for the shortcomings of the installer. It's not that my systems don't ever have trouble, but I stand behind it and fix it right so you don't see my customers complaining here.

Lbear: you wil find on most forums about most things, the complainers are always more vocal than the satisfied customers.

Opsman: tell your attorney to write a letter to the incompetant boob that put your system in and offer him 30 days to repair the problem or refund your money. Waterfurnace's legal obligation is to provide replacements for parts that failed- not troubleshoot or design etc.

Dealer, Dealer, DEALER.......how many times have we shared this little secret to geo satisfaction? It is exasperating.

Posted By engineer on 22 Jan 2012 09:40 AM
The problem with minisplits is that they lack the ability of a centrally ducted system to deliver small but necessary airflows to walk-in closets, bathrooms, commode closets, pantries, etc. Some minisplits are able to be ducted, but efficiency plummets and available static pressure is minuscule

That is a good point. The most simple and trouble free design is still the central air system. They provide the most constant temperature throughout a home, don't cost much, are easy to fix, with none of the headaches of these other designs. That is the direction I believe I will go with my home. I will just stick the air handler in conditioned space and run all the ducts in conditioned space.

opsman, We will be more than happy to look into your inquiry further. Please provide your model number, serial number, and the name of the contractor you are working. If you do not wish to post your information publicly, please feel free to send us a private message. WaterFurnace International, Inc.

Joe, I am trying to be accommodating. The dealer I used is a GeoPro dealer. And, they have been nice, but it's getting frustrating. You say dealer, dealer, but come on, don't market "GeoPro" if what you mean is any incompent boob. The word PRO is there for a reason. If they mean any nutball, then that is deceptive is it not?

What they found this last trip: the unit faulted due to low pressure. The pressure dropped to just 5 lbs.

Now my question is, why would pressure drop to a point of getting a fault?

Pressure can drop low enough to get a fault due to water flow issues and refrigerant issues. It can also be a bad switch.
The fault itself means different things with different manufacturers and can be misleading.

Opsman, you are trying to be accomodating to the dealer while criticizing WF. My aggravation is that for every complaint on here about a manufacturer there is often an incompetant dealer. If people would sue them instead of carping about manufacturers perhaps a few less would be around to generate complaints.

I don't sell WF. But none of my customers are complaining about the brands I do sell, because I take care of them.
Then I take care of the equipment sold by dealers like yours (that blame manufacturer for their bad installation). Many of these are water furnace units and they work fine.

Joe, my point isn't to criticize Water Furnace, I don't believe they are trying to cause pain. I think reading the post you'll see my issue is with the process.

I've been in business and I operate just like you. If I have a customer who has an issue, I throw everything at it. I really don't care how much it costs. I would have engineers on the phone with the customer setting the record straight. And, if the dealer is incompetent, I CERTAINLY don't put them into a program where my brand, GeoPro, is attached to them. I relied on Water Furnace's representation of GeoPro as a measure of competence. I can't possibly hunt down every geo install in the area and perform interviews to find which dealers are ok and which ones are not. By the way, I did do some research on the dealer and they have a good name. As I would still say Water Furnace has a good name.

But, they have certainly NOT (either one) lived up to my standards. And I think having been through what I've been through with this unit - any normal Joe would be upset in my position as well.

My gut says the reason the pressure loss is occurring is simple: it's leaking. I can't exactly say anyone is in my corner on it. Except me.

I wished I would have went with your company. You sound exactly like the person I would want to work with. A craftsman. An expert. (unfortunately, you're probably hundreds and hundreds of miles away) I am sure in the end, we'll get it worked out. I am just hoping it's not in the painful way for everyone.

Posted By opsman on 25 Jan 2012 10:49 AM
... My gut says the reason the pressure loss is occurring is simple: it's leaking.

Measure the temperature of the compressor's refrigerant discharge line (near the compressor) when the unit is in 1st stage, and compare it to the chart below (shows what the temperature reading should be for 3T Envision models - a 5 ton shouldn't be much different, as shown here, nor should your 6 ton unit).

If the temperature is much higher than 165°F, then you've got a refrigerant leak - pretty straight forward.  First place to look for the leak would be the evap coil.  No fancy instruments needed to find it - look for an oil film in the area of the leak, using a good powerful light source.



Hope this helps.

Best regards,

Bill

Opsman- truly sorry for your trouble and don't mean to pick on you. It sounds like you did your due dillegence and it didn't pay off. In most cases we see hear folks don't do their homework and then expect manufacturer support. Personally I don't want my distributors or equipment manufacturers to communicate with my customers- that's my job.
I'm not a huge fan of the Waterfurnace business model, but that is my only criticism. The product is first rate, the manufacturer support- typical.

I agree with you some are simply more into the numbers game of marketing than their reputation. I'm in mid MI if you are close enough I'd be glad to help.
j

JB74,

You need to file a law suit against WF. That will get their attention.

Norm

Norm2741,

Unfortunately, JB74 does not appear to be here to respond. WaterFurnace worked with JB74 and his dealer to resolve his issues. He has recently purchased 2 brand new units.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

Lbear the next thing you will find is that sometimes folks do not bother sharing the happy ending.