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Alex_in_FL
New Member
Posts:96
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| 29 Sep 2009 09:22 PM |
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Grrrrr! I hate laptops (just lost all my typing so going to paraphrase here). Some back of the envelop calcs are given below. However, that said I am betting the problem is #6. And yes, you have to read the post to figure what that is :)
$711 elect usage - $211 "other usage" = $500. At $0.20/KWH this means the unit used about 2,500 KWH in August. This is 83 KWH per day. A 4 ton ASHP Amana uses about 3.4 KWH per hour of runtime (16 SEER). Thus either the unit ran 24 hr a day OR something else is happening.
A 2.5 ton unit should provide pleny of cooling for your home (here in FL a 2.5 -3 ton unit would suffice for a 1,700 SF home). If the system is a 2 speed as someone suggested, it should be running on low almost all the time thus the electric bill could not be that high unless something else is happening.
Here are my guesses:
1. The loop was sized for the cooling load -- not the heating load (thus it is under sized) but does not solve the riddle
2. For some reason the auxillary heating unit is kicking on and the unit is having to fight it and summer heat - might solve the riddle but I am not sold on this
3. Alternatively, if you have a desuper heater it is connected backwards (i.e. the hot water heater is adding heat to the unit) - this could be the problem
4. The loop may be short circuiting or one or both loops are clogged - but most likely unit would shut down so this is not likely the answer
5. The loop may have air bubbles - same as 4, doesn't really solve the problem either
6. The contractor failed to charge the freon or it leaked out (Ah hah! I am betting on this one as this would cause the unit to run almost continuously)
7. All of the above
And to clarify something from your first post:
Lastly, the ground does "store" heat for a short time but only for a few days. Thus you are not going to store heat from the summer and use it in the winter. You might use the AC in the day and the heat at night and thus benefit from heat storage but this is going rare I think.
My recommendation is have the freon level checked, that seems the most likely culprit.
Best of luck to you.
Alex |
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waterpirate
Basic Member
Posts:467
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| 30 Sep 2009 06:52 AM |
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Oh Really???
If the groung loop only stores heat for a very short time, there should never be a failed loop field, and short looping should be encouraged. If you are short looped, just turn off your system for a couple of days and it will return to 55 degrees and you can start the unit back up. No harm no foul, magic BTu's.
Eric Sackett
weberwelldrilling.com |
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| Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center! |
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Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
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| 30 Sep 2009 07:38 AM |
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There is a definite problem with the system posted in this thread.
However it is apparent from a couple of recent posts that there are some serious misconceptions about how ground loops function with heat pumps.
Heat pumps work efficiently with entering water temps from 30° in the winter to 90° in the summer. A loop that is designed with the idea to keep install costs low will approach 30° towards the end of the heating season in a heating dominate area and will approach 90° towards the end of the cooling season in a cooling dominate area.
My own loop swings from a low of 40° to a high of 70°. I begin each heating and cooling season with very favorable EWT's. Indeed some of the heat that is taken from my house in the summer is stored in the ground and is available for use in heating my house when cold weather arrives. The flip side occurs when starting the cooling season.
A closed loop that swings 20° above and below the deep earth temp (a 40° swing) is a properly designed loop. The cost of drilling enough loops in the ground to keep the EWT's within 5° of deep earth temp ( a 10° swing) could be as much as ten times more than letting the loop swing 40°.
There would never be a pay back in a system installed to keep the EWT's with a 10° swing.
While I appreciate that we are all trying to help others solve their problems, posting bad info helps no one.
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Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 30 Sep 2009 08:12 AM |
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I think verification of loop length is key before other steps are taken. Suggest consumer check igshpa or buildng dept (local inspector) for name of pro. Let us know.
J |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 30 Sep 2009 08:22 AM |
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Posted By geodean on 09/30/2009 7:38 AM
...A closed loop that swings 20° above and below the deep earth temp (a 40° swing) is a properly designed loop. The cost of drilling enough loops in the ground to keep the EWT's within 5° of deep earth temp ( a 10° swing) could be as much as ten times more than letting the loop swing 40°.
There would never be a pay back in a system installed to keep the EWT's with a 10° swing.
While I appreciate that we are all trying to help others solve their problems, posting bad info helps no one.
Not to mention the pumping power likely needed to drive water through a loopfield sized for a 10 degree swing. Even if first cost money is no object, I would think there would be a max loop size strictly from an efficiency standpoint.
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 30 Sep 2009 08:32 AM |
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(Tongue planted firmly in cheek):
Power bills like that almost suggest...um...shall I say...basement agriculture?
That would explain both an extra ton or two of system capacity (need to counter heat load of grow lighting) and very high summer electricity bills.
The good news is that winter heating needed by such a setup should be low to non-existent! |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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Masoud
Basic Member
Posts:180
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| 30 Sep 2009 11:59 AM |
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LED grow lights work well for growing herbs, when lush growth is the objective, not flower production.
Regards,
Masoud |
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njbillt
New Member
Posts:14
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| 30 Sep 2009 06:15 PM |
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Posted By engineer on 09/30/2009 8:32 AM
(Tongue planted firmly in cheek):
Power bills like that almost suggest...um...shall I say...basement agriculture?
This one made me laugh. As the next door neighbor and originator of this thread, and the guy that was just in the basement yesterday getting the model number, I can assure you my neighbors are not growing weed in their basement. LOL, but it did make me laugh. |
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Alex_in_FL
New Member
Posts:96
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| 30 Sep 2009 06:34 PM |
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Nodding thoughfully in Engineer's direction with finger on outside of nose.
But if Engineer's tongue in cheek statement is wrong then I am still betting on insufficient freon to get a bill that large for cooling that far up north. But like Engineer says, without data you only have opinion.
And please keep the statement in perspective of the post. A four ton heat pump is not going to store enough heat in the ground over the summer to provide any significant return of BTUs in the winter unless (a) you have an extremely short fall or (b) the groundwater suddenly reverses direction and begins bring back the slightly warmed water that carried away some of the heat or maybe (c) there are four wells in a square (and this will provide extremely minimal). And I believe the poster said there were only two wells so option C is out.
BTW, if the ground really stored significant amounts of heat then how does a GSHP work more than a few minutes? Would not the heat simply store up in the ground right beside the pipe (or does the heat move some predetermined distance then hang around waiting on winter to come before rushing back)?
A short looped system would fail simply because there is not enough heat exchanger surface (i.e. the resistance of the pipe itself).
Don't take the post out of context. The poster is obviously not well versed in GT and his post suggested the contractor was implying that all the heat from the summer would be stored up right there in the ground for him to use all winter - like a huge "magical" BTU storage tank.
Pardon the "frustration" |
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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| 30 Sep 2009 06:52 PM |
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The ground is a BTU storage tank that stores and loses heat to/from the sinks/sources - ground water flow, surface, ground loops, etc. The proportions of each of these is site specific.
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 30 Sep 2009 10:00 PM |
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LEDs for grow lighting. That'll cut both lighting watts and heat load. Fewer search warrants executed based on extreme electricity bills - increased cannabis supply = decreased cannabis prices.
Sounds like an excellent candidate for a govt stimulus program to help defray the up front cost of the LED lighting
(Pot growers may be former flower children, but flowers aren;t of primary interest to them now)
I remember reading online. a couple years ago of a design for a Canadian community geo system designed to allow heat storage during summer cooling for recovery during winter heating. If I recall correctly plan was for massive excavation and an insulated volume of ground beneath community...can't imagine it would be remotely cost effective, but idea was to trap summer heat for winter use and conversely. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 05 Oct 2009 07:59 AM |
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Bill let us know when expert comes out.
Joe |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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njbillt
New Member
Posts:14
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| 05 Oct 2009 08:18 AM |
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Posted By joe.ami on 10/05/2009 7:59 AM
Bill let us know when expert comes out.
Joe
Carrier is supposed to be sending someone from another authorized Carrier installer to look at the system. I am as interested as you guys. I'll post when I know something. |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 06 Oct 2009 10:13 PM |
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Posted By geodean on 09/30/2009 7:38 AM
1.) ...Heat pumps work efficiently with entering water temps from 30° in the winter to 90° in the summer.
2.) A loop that is designed with the idea to keep install costs low will approach 30° towards the end of the heating season in a heating dominate area and will approach 90° towards the end of the cooling season in a cooling dominate area.
3.) ... A closed loop that swings 20° above and below the deep earth temp (a 40° swing) is a properly designed loop.
4.) The cost of drilling enough loops in the ground to keep the EWT's within 5° of deep earth temp ( a 10° swing) could be as much as ten times more than letting the loop swing 40°.
5.) There would never be a pay back in a system installed to keep the EWT's with a 10° swing.
I think this is one of the most well articulated fundamentals of geothermal design. I saved this summary to a file, with Dwayne's name attached, to constantly remind me of the universal truths. Thanks Dwayne! Best regards, Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
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| 10 Oct 2009 07:33 AM |
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Thanks Bill....I have learned a lot from the posters on this forum including you.
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Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 10 Oct 2009 08:54 AM |
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I recommend to the moderator that the above five points (valid for a closed loop system) be established as a permanent 'sticky' that's always at the top of the list.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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njbillt
New Member
Posts:14
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| 21 Dec 2009 09:07 PM |
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and the winner is ... alex_in_FL!!!
He was right! The aux heater was running every time the compressor was. In the winter the AUX heat was primary, and in the summer, it was fighting with the poor heat pump trying to cool the house. I don't have the exact name of the part, but I spoke with the neighbor over the weekend, and after threatening to have Brueltech energy monitors hooked up to figure out where all the usage was, the installer's ELECTRICIAN found the problem with an amp meter. Apparently, a part within the unit itself was malfunctioning. I only wish I had thought to have them flip the breaker for the aux heater during the cooling season. We could have had this solved in July. This has been a full year of high bills, which of course enither Carrier nor the installer want to cover. Anyway, thank you to all that contributed. I promised to get back when I had an answer. It was a faulty part in the unit causing the aux heater to be on all the time.
Bill in NJ |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 21 Dec 2009 10:42 PM |
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Score one for Alex!
Early on I recommended getting a competent tech onsite - I like to think he / she would have found the strip issue.
I wasn't all that far off with my grow-light theory - there was in fact a huge additional cooling load being imposed on this system. Too bad there wasn't some weed as a result - could have helped with the light bills!
There is a lesson here for all of us - none of us asked about leaving air temps, which likely would have been substantially warmer than the standard 17-21 Delta-T we like to see in cooling mode.
I'll be the dehu was really really good with all that reheat...
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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southline
New Member
Posts:20
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| 22 Dec 2009 11:01 AM |
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I came to this thread a little late. I have been a geo service tech for 10 years and licence ref. mechanic for 11 more.
Just a few checks with a thermometer... EWT ect. and current check-problem solved. Too bad the owner didn't call when his/her first high bill came in. Is there any communication with the installer?
Adam C. |
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jrupinsk
New Member
Posts:3
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| 22 Dec 2009 01:35 PM |
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engineer, thank you for posting to me on the other forum, I am posting my topic from that forum here to show my problem. Sounds like the same unit. I know I should have called when the bill was high, but made assumptions thinking it was me and the thermostat, outdoor temps, doors and windows open,
Hi All
In March of 2009 I had a 14 year old Water Furnace unit replaced with a Carrier50YDH064 Geothermal heat pump. The replacement was done by the same company out of Vineland New Jersey that had done the original Water Furnace and I have been satisfied with their work and service. Summer came and the house cooled adequately. The electric bill came in very high and I thought that some thermostat programming was wrong so changed some settings and went about summer. The July [$1202] and August [$1717] bills were almost double the previous year. The installing dealer came out and found a faulty control board left the backup electric heat on continuously. The air conditioning kept up and nothing appeared wrong. The board was replaced and everything was normal. I asked Carrier for reimbursement of $1500 for excessive electric charges. Carrier has denied any reimbursement citing the warranty only covers parts and labor. I feel this is an initial failure and I should get reimbursed. Any opinions? Any recourse? Has any one else been through something like this? All help is appreciated. Thanks and Happy Holidays.
J. Rupinski
Villas, NJ |
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