I would like to start a new forum on Customer Service-MOST IMPORTANT in my mind -GOOD or BAD among the different manufacturers .  Geo thermal manufacturers are increasing in number and a new customer researching geothermal manufacturers should be able to glean this information from one forum before taking the PLUNGE!  Also, it might be a good idea to mention contractors who performed the job, their thoroughness and how reasonable or exorbitant their fees were.  Especially now, when the energy dept is offering a very tempting 30% tax incentive, there will be more entrants into this field -manufacturers and contractors alike.  I think everyone can benefit from this forum.

I'll go first.  I live in Michigan and installed my systems in Aug 2008.  My systems (I have three -2TON, 4TON and 5TON) are Earthlinked DX.  Their customer service is a 2 out of a possible 10.   However, the contractor who put in the systems-Brian Garno with Garno Brothers INC gets a 10 out 10.   He has been trying to FIX these for over a year! Please see the forum " Faulty Earthlinked DX systems" for details on all the woes I have had and still continuing.  If there are others with the same type of problems-WHOPPING BILLS that I have had, please do respond.  We need to get the word out there about the DUDS!

Lets be fair and note also the successes and try to drill down to determine what made them so.

I had already noted"I would like to start a new forum on Customer Service-MOST IMPORTANT in my mind -GOOD or BAD among the different manufacturers ."

Good experiences put forh are as important as bad ones.  The purpose of this forum is not to defame a company but to share VITAL customer service experiences as a guide to new customers before they take decisions on which manufacturer/contractor they would like to choose.

"I would like to start a new forum on Customer Service-MOST IMPORTANT in my mind -GOOD or BAD among the different manufacturers ."

Most geo customers have zero relationship with the manufacturer which may account for the lack of response to your thread.
Yours being a RARE exception, if the contractor does his/her job right, 99% of the time a consumer would have no occasion to contact the manufacturer.

Bill noted recently that warranties are actually to the contractor not the consumer. While I confess I have not read the fine print in all warranties, I would respectfully submit that the homeowner ultimately does have a warranty with or without installing contractor. It is conditional as manufacturers' ask that a qualified servicer be involved. In some cases (such as a thermostat) anyone with a relationship at a supply house could get it honored. In some cases (Earthlinked is one) you must undergo factory authorized training to conduct warranty repairs.
This is not unique to the geo business, I could not get warranty work on my Ford performed at a Chevy dealer. Nor will Ford send me even a brake light bulb if I wish to do the work myself. Furthermore geo manufacturers' do not have the same influence over contractors as automakers since we are not franchises.
When does this become a problem?.....
Only when your installing contractor fails to satisfy your needs.

So what's the best possible interaction between a consumer and a manufacturer?.........None.

What's the most important component to geo consumer satisfaction?..........Installing contractor.

....again yours is a rare exception.......

joe

I did have some issues with Laury Heating in Vineland NJ, they are state certified installers. When they origianlly connected the system, they only ran one circuit to the unit, and connected only the Aux heater and the blower motor.  The unit required two circuits, a sperate circuit for the heat Pump.  They tried to justify there mistake by saying they don't normally work with Waterfurnace, but if they bothered to read the schematic correctly, it would have told them what the requirements were.  I noticed the problem 2 weeks later when turning the system on for the first time, the water was not flowing thru the system.  They returned and corrected there mistake.

The second issue was I specifically told the salesperson and the installers I wanted the AUX heat disabled on the system, something they neglected to do.  I only noticed the issue one day when we had a power failure and when the power came back on, the heating vents were blowing hot air.  I was able to identify the correct dip switches with the install instructions and disable them myself.

Apart from the R-22 charge, honestly I could have connected the system myself if I was able to order the unit and have it shipped to me.  This was a replacement unit, which was replacing a Florida Heat pump that failed after 17 years of service.  Pretty much all that was involved was removing the old unit, carrying the new unit into the basement, setting it in place, modifying the air ducts to fit the new unit, modifying the PVC piping for the water supply and running the electrical circuits.  Doing it myself would have taken me a lot longer to do it, several days at least, also I don't have the skills to make sheet metal duct work, but I noticed the rest of the system uses some type of insulated fiberboard thats taped together, I could have make the duct connections that way.  Also I don't have the skills to solder copper pipes togther for the Desuperheater, I would have had to get a plumber for that.  Electrical is no problem for me, and it would have taken me longer to puzzle out the thermostat wiring, but I'm sure I could have done it myself.

 

 

     

As always TG you know i love ya, but what the hell does any of this have to do with the manufacturer ( Customer Service Comparisons Between Geothermal Manufacturers).

j

I can tell you this much....I've never been more appalled by a company than WaterFurnace. I have a grossly oversized system. I was pressured both by the contractor and the WaterFurnace territory manager to install a 4 ton system. I trusted them and now I have terrible humidity issues. I have two Energy Star raters who watched helplessly as all this unfolded. One tried to get the contractor to resize, but he adamantly insisted on installing a 4 ton system in my 3200 sq. ft. (very TIGHT) home and said he wouldn't guarantee anything less. I trusted in the expertise of the contractor and his father who was at the time the territory manager for WaterFurnace. Now the contractor's business seems to be in ruin and the territory manager from WaterFurnace is dead. And I can't even get my start-up paperwork from the new territory manager who completed it himself and said he would send it to me after he rerecorded everything "neatly." Now he doesn't answer my calls or e-mails. In fact, I've written 3 different people with WaterFurnace and no one will respond. So...I was pressured to buy a system larger than I needed, now I have humidity issues in the upper 60% during the cooling season, and I'm expected to pay for a dehumidification system to cover up these problems. The contractor refuses to acknowledge the issues and has become so belligerent that I will not deal with him (he scares me) and I suspect he has burned bridges with WaterFurnace totally. It's a terrible situation. I feel completely screwed. Ironically, I know that WaterFurnace has sold at least 2 systems as a result of my recommendations. I hosted a builder lunch and learn (25 builders came) in which the regional sales manager gave a presentation on the Envision series in this home prior to completion. We cooked homemade brunswick stew to encourage a large crowd for this presentation and took care of all the details, communication, etc. This is the thanks I get? I've got a problem (a serious one) and they won't even return my e-mails? WaterFurnace makes a great product. But that amounts to nothing if they offer no accountability in situations like this. I've never felt so dumped on by a company.

Sorry I was responding to the:

"Also, it might be a good idea to mention contractors who performed the job, their thoroughness and how reasonable or exorbitant their fees were."

portion of the original posting. I didn't mention the fees, but I considered them to be exorbitant.  I proably could have gotten the same system for several thousand less if I wasn't locked into a "State Certified" installer because of low interest loan offered by the state of New Jersey.  

Hey MPH:

How about starting a separate thread of your own on your install issues - we could dig into what's troubling your system. I agree that humidity in the upper 60s is way out of line but wonder if there aren't some tweaks that could bring that down.

Add to your new thread where you are located and try to answer our basic 10 questions you can find in the "what to ask..." thread

Thank you, but all that has already been done.

And the system HAS been tweaked -- fan speed slowed down, filter changed, coils cleaned, etc. We've turned off all the ventilation fans in the home to see if that decreased the humidity. It really didn't effect any change. We closed the vent to the sealed crawl space for a time to see if that improved things. If there were any improvements, they were only minor. Short of cutting into the loop and replacing the unit itself, it is my understanding that a dedicated dehumidification system is my only choice. That will cost probably at least 2000.00. I can add that to the 6-8000.00 I've already paid for tons and loop I didn't need, not to mention efficiency I will never be able to achieve.

This is a LEED registered home -- very green and highly promoted. We did everything we could -- and the centerpiece of the home and the incompetence surrounding its selection has undermined the entire project. I'm am sickened by the whole thing.

The system is oversized. Everybody knows it -- believe me. The question remains...is anybody going to do anything about it? Or do I take matters into my own hands?

I agree that a dedicated central dehu is an undesireable last ditch fix. I'd be furious at any humidity above 60% at anytime other than when it is both mild and damp outside. No system absent a separate dehu can cope with days when there is little or no sensible load and high humidity, such as on a rainy day with temps in the 70s.

By chance are you running continuous blower during cooling season?

Do you have excessive latent loads such as house plants?

What did manual J call for? Properly done it would detail both your sensible and latent loads. If it was as you say blatantly ignored by the installing contractor that would be grounds for action, but legal action should be your last resort.

A bypass returning some supply air into the return is another fairly low cost intervention. Off the top of my head I don't think it would be too hard to control it so that it is only active while cooling and is limited by temperature so as to avoid evaporator icing.

Did you by chance wind up with an Envision 049 with the 1 hp blower rather than 1/2 hp? If memory serves, the 1 HP option limits blower speed choices to higher CFMs than the 1/2 HP, I'm unsure why.

Do you have the Intellizone zone controller and if so is the dehu option selected? - it reduces CFM a further 15% in cooling mode only.

With all due respect your post count indicates you haven't been here is part of your prior problem-solving efforts. There are some of the best experts in the business here who donate countless tips and fixes to further the geo industry. We've cracked some tough nuts in the past. We'll help you, but we do ask that you answer thoughtful questions to the best of your ability.

It is a 049 and there is an intellizone and the dehumidification option is selected. I can't confirm the HP, but I'm guessing it is a 1 hp. I know there is very little turndown opportunity. Manual Js from the Energy Star rater and the original contractor didn't match up. Original contractors came in at around 3.5 tons. The Energy Star rater came in at 2.5. I was at a loss as to what to do; I tried my best to get them to reach a joint conclusion but that never happened. Of course, I had a very impassioned e-mail from the WaterFurnace territory manager that put the fear of God inside me about undersizing the system. I figured they knew what they were talking about and I took his advice.

All the operational data has been taken and recorded...the problem is the new territory manager won't return it to me. I called the contractor (the one that looked at the system with him) a little while ago and asked if he could get the data. His response? "Tate [territory manager] has all that and hasn't responded to me." I suspect that the information gathered during that two hour troubleshooting session confirms how grossly oversized the system is and that is why it hasn't been returned to me. Why else would he be withholding it and not responding to me at all? Of course, I can get another contractor to complete the start-up/troubleshooting paperwork and I may have to.

Nice huh? I guess they hope I'll just give up and go away. Won't happen.

Complete model number should allow determination of blower selection

For minimum air flow selections lowest 5 of 12 DIP switches are selected on zone board. Make changes only with board powered off.

Is it possible the unit is only operating in high stage? It wouldn't be the first time an installer unfamiliar with two stage equipment has made such a mistake.

What about continuous blower operation - that can add 5-10% to RH

Metro area?

It is NDV049A111CTR. I don't know the answers to your other questions, except that I know it is definitely not only running in high stage. It does 1st stage -- just not for very long. Both the territory manager and the contractor who were out here have many, many years of experience with WaterFurnace equipment. I can't imagine they would have overlooked anything obvious. Although the contractor provided a report, it was minus very much actual data. Here is some of what he said in that report--although he is incorrect with his statement about the humidity returning to normal at peak cooling. That's not true. It was too humid mid summer--he just didn't get brought in on the house unit around September:

Several tests were performed on the 4 ton dual output variable speed geothermal heat pump that was zoned into 4 individual areas with their individual thermostats. A heating performance and cooling performance test was done to determine the amount of heat absorption and heat rejection was occurring in the ground loop whether in heat or cool mode. An indoor temperature differential was recorded for each test. The damper control systems were adjusted to enhance humidity removal. The coolant Freon charge was checked to confirm the proper charge level. In the final analysis, the Water Furnace system was operating properly with the only change being made to the sequencing of the fan in some zoned areas. A minor change that may enhance the unit performance but would not be a major cause of the problem afore mentioned.
The homeowner had obtained structural load calculations for the residence by an independent energy firm that had indicted a significantly lower heat loss and gain than would be provided by the 4 ton unit installed. I did not calculate a load on the house as I have no reason to suspect that the information being presented was not factual. I was also noted that the measured humidity was significantly higher in the crawl space than was measured in to living space (approx. 72%).
After studying the installation and collected data, I made the following observations:
- The house appears to be operating in a negative pressure zone with the use of constant exhaust fans.
- The crawl space is operating in a positive pressure zone with the unrestricted duct outlet into the crawl space.
- A certain amount of high humidity air would be carried into the living space as the total house envelope attempts to neutralize this pressure gradient. I temporarily closed off the sub floor vent to attempt to effect a change. I have no data to confirm that it made any difference.
- According to the provided load calculation and the unit installed, the unit size may be larger than necessary. The problems associated with oversized equipment are normally overcome when utilizing 2 speed units such as the one installed.
- The use of an exhaust system can contribute to the humidity problem in certain ambient conditions. Other than manually cutting the system off, there are no other controls that monitor outside humidity and compare to inside levels.
- Shorter run times by larger equipment can fail to remove adequate humidity in nominal conditioning environments. Also, the tighter and more efficient the structure is, less the unit is called to run. The unit does not run enough to lower the humidity during these marginal times. A thermostat operates according to sensible heat levels but is unaware of latent heat levels. It does not actively seek to correct a humidity level problem.
- Humidity levels seem to drop to more normal levels in the peak heating and cooling seasons.
- Humidity levels measured by homeowner owned meters were within 2% of levels measured by my wet bulb and dry bulb psychrometer. Homeowner reading was consistently 2% higher.

Per that model number you have the standard size blower.

The pressurized and highly humid crawl space coupled with the oversized unit and negative living area may all be combining to cause your humidity issue.

I see from your profile you are in NC, which I began to expect when the crawl space issue came to light.

Sealing the crawl space if not done already may be worthwhile.

When you say that's been done do you mean posted here? What's the thread title?
Even if you just wish to complain about your install give the OP and yourself the respect of dedicated threads.
Joe

The crawl space IS sealed. I mean all the tests have been performed and the data is being withheld from me.

The crawl space IS sealed. I mean all the tests have been performed and the data is being withheld from me.

MPH, I'm just a homeowner, (I'm not a legal expert and I'm not a geothermal expert) but it sound to me like they are waiting for you to take the next step. Maybe one last nicely worded letter (certified mail with return receipt) to them is in order stating that they need to contact you by xxx date to amicably resolve this matter or you will discuss this situation with an attorney?

If offered from the installer, would you accept a free dehumidifier (and estimated dehumidifier running costs) as full settlement? I assume they would want you to provide a release to them for doing this, so you probably won't be able to take legal action over this issue in the future if you agree to settle. I wouldn't suggest this settlement to them unless you get professional legal and independent geothermal advise first (to make sure this will take care of the humidity issue).  If you won't settle for anything less than properly sized equipment, legal action may be necessary.

Just my opinion.

Geome, I'm certainly willing to entertain their ideas for an solution, but other experts will have to concur their suggestions are the best course of action. I've lost all trust in WaterFurnace, but I am willing to give them one final chance to do the right thing. I won't pay a dime for anything else on this system. I've paid over $25K already and this is where its got me.