That's not nice!

Being 400 miles away helps too. 

All this talk about geo vs oil misses the big picture. What is most effective is to reduce the demand. My own house is a ranch with a full basement that is conditioned space 1050 ft^2 upstairs, same in the basement (workshop) figure 2100 ft^2 total conditioned space. Heated with Propane boiler, DHW from an indirect tank and solar water heater, small wood stove and passive solar. 6500 HDD average.
Average electrical usage 209 kwh/month, so far I have used ~130 gallons of propane for heat and hot water (and gas range) since oct 1. I have burned ~ ¾ cord of wood so far this winter.
 Energy costs are as follows:  I paid 1.39$ gallon last summer for a full tank of propane, electricity is 0.186$ kwh + 16$ month flat fee. Effectively it is about 0.26$ kwh at my usage levels.
 Best guess so far is ~650$ year in electricity and about 300$ in Propane for this years utility costs. I think I can shave 150$ or so off the yearly electrical bill ( I have a 15 year old fridge and old washer and dryer). Eventually I will go to a gas dryer. I still need to add an extra insulating blanket to the Indirect tank and solar tank which should help a bit in the summer. To me the bottom line is that if you insulate the house properly, your heating costs are so low, geothermal does not make much sense. Only when you build a big crappy house with lousy insulation does geothermal pay off.

Of course if electricity is 0.07$ kwh it makes geothermal more attractive

Cheers
Eric

Posted By stuart.wyss on 01 Mar 2010 08:00 PM
Been trying to think about how the costs compare to a standard heat pump. I've never had one in this particular house, but in comparing to my previous house, I note the following:
In 2008, my previous house (1200 sq feet, built 1982, twin) had an air-to-air heat pump, and in Feb of 08 cost $60 to heat the house.
In 2010, my current house (2100 sq feet, built 1959, single-family) has a geothermal, and in Feb of '10, cost $125 to heat the house.
The number of heating degree days in Feb 08 and Feb 10 were about equal.
I know, twice as big house, much older, but should I be surprised that it cost twice the electricity to heat the new home, with a system that's supposedly much more efficient? Is my current house that much worse at retaining heat?
Sure, compared to oil, geo is cheaper for this home, but I'm surprised at basically $4/day to heat the house. I've always heard it should be about $1 - $2 per day.

Stuart.wyss ~

Regarding your post above, do you know how much you were paying per KWH and transmission costs and flat upfront monthly rate in Feb 08?  If any of those were lower in '08 that would make the difference smaller.  Also, how do you know it was $60 to "heat the house?"  How did you split out your regular daily usage?  If you don't meter then there is also room for error there.  If you had an old cranky fridge in your first place and have a newer one in your "new" house - just things to consider. 

The primary thing to look at is how many KWH's did you use rather than the cost.

Sorry to sway the conversation away from your Asian escorts, but I thought Ford made the escort and that's American made...

Regarding Tartis HVAC, cooling would be easy because space is pretty cold, now heat would require the flux capacitor (I know I'm combining venues).

Great questions. There probably is some error, but not much. We went a couple months without heating or cooling, just appliances. We brought the same appliances, including the fridge, to the new house. The "base" cost, since our tv viewing, computer use, appliance use, didnt' change, and was $105. I'm subtracting that to find "heating or cooling cost".

I know one can consider KWH the prize for getting the lowest, but for me, right now, it's all about saving the $$. Sure, rates will go up (as will oil prices). I'm working on changing more lightbulbs, insulating the house more, just got a new washing machine, etc. I'm sure all of these will pay off in the long run.

Stuart,

Don't set your system back so much. it will be more efficient if you don't drop setpoints more than 4 degrees apart. You'll be more comfortable and the system will operate more efficiently.

Paul
Total Green Geo
www.TotalGreenUS.com

I have a 3 T w-w system with infloor radiant, indirect DHW and a 40 Gal Electric finishing tank to bring to 125F. 3500 sq foot 9 year old house. (kept at 70F and with the room Tstats set at a 3F cut in and cutout differential) in 2009- same cool temps i went through approx $1100 in furnace oil Feb/Mar. in 2010- Feb/Mar $350 in electricity for the Heat pump and DHW and my regular $130 for all other electric devices. No other suppl heat and the range and dryer are electric. so my total bill for 2 full months was $480 (including fees and taxes). I am more than pleased with this bill.

Fred,

Glad to hear you are happy

Hey everyone,
Next electric bill just came in, thought I'd share my findings so far.
Electric bill covers 2/25 to 3/26.
594 heating degree days
If I'd had oil, I estimate it would have been $299 for oil heat, plus $105 for non-heating electrical usage (read previous posts for how I got those numbers)
With Geo, the total electric bill for the above time period was $159. So, $55 for heating/hot water.

Posted By stuart.wyss on 28 Mar 2010 08:40 AM
Hey everyone,
Next electric bill just came in, thought I'd share my findings so far.
Electric bill covers 2/25 to 3/26.
594 heating degree days
If I'd had oil, I estimate it would have been $299 for oil heat, plus $105 for non-heating electrical usage (read previous posts for how I got those numbers)
With Geo, the total electric bill for the above time period was $159. So, $55 for heating/hot water.

Stuart - how many KwH?

Here is my kW summary-  Base usage (no HP) and running, washer/dryer/dishwasher/wellpump/spetic pump/ fridge/upright freezer and all other things like  2 laptops, chargers, old style TV, sat receiver, lights etc is approx 10 kW/d.   The heat pump averaged approx 50 kWh/day @almost 12cents/kWh.   average temp vs same period in 2009 was slightly cooler in 2010. 

My indirect hotwater tank is not heated by my desuperheater. The GSHP is pre-heating my cold well water (41F) to 100F off my buffer tank.   works good.   then my finishing tank brings to approx 125F.  Have not decided what to do this summer.  Only 3 of us here.  May not be worth keeping the GSHP running and maintaining a buffer tank for just DHW.     Will see.     Opinions are always appreciated 

Frederic   

It was for 1423 Kw total, for 28 days... 51 Kwh/day.
Base usage for the house is about 750 kw total (26 kwh/day) includes a couple computers, oven, microwaves, fridge, lighting, washer/dryer, etc.

Doesn't that seem kinda high??
I mean, I have
2 desktop computers (run 24/7) but with monitors usually off
1 laptop (24/7)
assorted modems/routers/etc
probably a dozen lights that are on 5-6 hours per day, mix of CFL and incandescent, maybe 800 watts per hour)
1 old fridge
laundry - 5 loads per week, elec dryer (old), elec washer (old)
very occasional sump pump, bathroom lights/fans/
microwave/toaster over/stove, all newer, all electric, stove maybe 30 mins/day average, microwave, 5 min/day average, toaster over, 10-20 mins/day average.
I pulled together a little excel spreadsheet and it would seems that I should be at about 13 kwh/day.

Our base load is about 25 kwh / day with loads similar to what you describe. I don't see how you would use only 13 kwh / day with all you describe.

Our we 8 pages deep in conjecture?.....!
j

yes

Yeah, I never imagined my posting of my operating costs would lead to so much discussion/debate :-)

Posted By eric anderson on 09 Mar 2010 08:55 AM
All this talk about geo vs oil misses the big picture. What is most effective is to reduce the demand. ....

.... To me the bottom line is that if you insulate the house properly, your heating costs are so low, geothermal does not make much sense. Only when you build a big crappy house with lousy insulation does geothermal pay off.

Insulation will only get you so far.  I've said this before, it's entirely possible insulate you house so tight that no fresh air gets into the house from the outside and you suffocate to death.  There are laws on who tight your can insulate before your required to install a ventilation system to bring in outside air into the house.  While it may not make much sense go Geo with a small house that well insulated, there no way you can insulate a large house in a colder climate well enough to not justify a Geo system. 

Posted By engineer on 30 Mar 2010 09:41 PM
Our base load is about 25 kwh / day with loads similar to what you describe. I don't see how you would use only 13 kwh / day with all you describe.

You really can't under estimate Vampire loads or phantom loads.  It's been estimated that as much as 10% of your utility bill is from electronic devices in your house.  Everything from your alarm clock, the clock on your Coffee machine, microwave oven clock, stove clock, any electronic device you turn on with a remote (Stereo, Cable box, TV), outside motion sensor lights, also all this heat generated from these devices adds to your cooling load.  Pretty much anything that is plugged in that doesn't have a power strip installed is sucking down juice.
    

Stuart:
I thought this was a very useful topic for discussion. It gave me a chance to see how my system was doing, granted the differences in situations that Joe so wisely cautioned us to be aware of. So thank you for initiating this discussion!
My baseline consumption is about 15 kWh/day and heating adds about 20 kWh/day in the height of winter (usually January and February). I only have CFLs everywhere and the big chunk of the consumption seems to come from my refrigerator and the hot water heater (though the DSH probably helps me keep this down.) My thermostat is set to around 66 evenings and weekends, and 64 nights and days when I am out.
Incidentally, as Curt and Joe have often pointed out, cooling which I don't have to use as much, usually appears to be slightly more expensive than heating. thermostat set to 72.

I realluy appreciate the contributions of all here.

Thanks!
Sam