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WF Envision Split 2 Ton Low Pressure Lockout
Last Post 24 Dec 2009 01:18 PM by geome. 38 Replies. |
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G.O. Joe
Basic Member
Posts:110
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| 21 Dec 2009 06:02 AM |
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Geome
First if you get a lockout again do not cut power to unit-
1- Ask installer if it is OK to proceed with the following. He might require to read codes himself and in greater depth for a proper diagnosis.
2- Read and notate lockout fault at unit (if you get a lo pressure/comp fault and are comfortable taking the cover off, check to see if there is a comfort alert code and notate)
3- The lockout can be reset at the thermostat by removing any demands to the HP unit (set thermostat to off) for a few moments then return to normal operation.
On a split system the L (lockout) signal does not pass to the air handler so I don't see how it can enable electric heat there. In this case the job falls to the thermostat. If you have the electric heat locked out there, it will not come on unless you manually change to emergency heat.
I think you will have to rethink your aux lockout at the thermostat strategy. I might suggest as others have many times that you let the Aux 3rd stage run as intended in the original design. That would be "original functionality". You might be surprised how few dollars you are fighting to save. Let us know.
The L signal originates from the comp control board (in your case LO terminal). It can either flash or be solid 24v depending on dip sw position. It normally is wired to thermostat to let the HO know they need service by display (different thermostats will show different alerts). The Prestige pops up a window saying something like Heat Pump Trouble with Push for Info button. I do not know how it would handle a flash code.
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geome
Advanced Member
Posts:987
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| 22 Dec 2009 03:32 PM |
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Thanks again G.O. Joe. You have good advise. I have some additional information from WF:
When there is a lockout, they say that typically the unit will lock out again within 1/2 hour to 24 hours if there is a problem that needs to be addressed.
With Envision systems, the split system is different from their all-in-one system in that the split system will not automatically engage Emergency Heat during a lockout. The all-in-one system will automatically engage Emergency Heat during a lockout. Unfortunately, both manuals are worded the same as to Emergency Heat engaging during a lockout.
As you suggested, I need to change our aux lockout setting (for our split system) so auxiliary heat can activate during a lockout when the temperature drops 3 degrees or so.
It was suggested that it is NOT a good idea to connect the L terminal on our Prestige thermostat since the thermostat sends a 24v output from the L terminal when the thermostat is manually switched to Emergency Heat. Results are unknown given simultaneous 24v lockout output from the compressor and a 24v output from the thermostat.
In another post I asked about how low to set back the thermostat while away for several days. WF said that 55f return air might trigger a lockout, so I would keep the temperature a few (maybe 3) degrees above that to be safe.
I am very pleased with the response from WF. I believe I contacted them 3 times with different questions since April. They always returned calls within 1 day, were always very nice and helpful, and I was always able to speak directly to a technical person (instead of customer service) if my question warranted it, or if I requested a technical person.
P.S. Any creative methods on being alerted to a lockout (other than the thermostat monitor)? We have a 24v lockout output just sitting there that could be used...
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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G.O. Joe
Basic Member
Posts:110
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| 22 Dec 2009 05:15 PM |
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Geome
Again I do not know how the Prestige will handle the flash code from the Envision Lockout. However, as stated above, a dip switch on the Envision will change it to a solid 24v signal.
With that it doesn't matter if Honeywell calls it an output. If the Envision and Prestige are on the same transformer the 24v signals are in phase, meaning it is the same 24 volt signal. Then when the unit locks out you get this-
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geome
Advanced Member
Posts:987
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| 22 Dec 2009 07:08 PM |
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G.O. Joe, cool. Did you do this? If so, did you push the button for more info? Electricity is not my strong suit. To confirm (one last time), everything is ok with the lockout 24v output coming from the geothermal unit to the thermostat at the same time as the 24v L terminal output from the thermostat (when in emergency heat mode) all going through the same wire? Would you mind trying to engage your emergency heat to see if anything blows up on your system before I try it?   Just kidding! I'm going to start a new thread on lockout alerts. |
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 22 Dec 2009 09:08 PM |
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I highly recommend that the L0 terminal on an Envision unit *not* be connected to the L terminal on a Honeywell Prestige tstat.
The L0 terminal on an Envision may only be a 0-5 V signal, continuous or pulsing depending on a DIP switch setting in the Envision unit. I believe if the switch setting is set to continuous, the signal is AC. I don't know if it's a DC signal if set to pulse.
I highly recommend agreement be obtained from WaterFurnace technical support before connecting L0 to L on the Prestige.
My guess is it will be difficult to obtain this from WF, as WF is particularly sensitive about connecting its equipment to anything not manufactured/distributed by WF. Since WF distributes its own tstats, my guess is WF would not agree that it's acceptable to connect L0 to L on the Prestige.
An alternative is to get agreement from an HVAC professional highly familiar with both the Envision and the Prestige.
Without one of these agreements, I would not do it.
Aux / Emergency heat appears to be signaled by the Aux/E terminal in the Prestige. I would connect this terminal to the W terminal in the Envision.
The Envision has 3 stages of heating:
Stage 1 - Y1 'on'
Stage 2 - Y1 and Y2 on
Stage 3 - Y1, Y2 and W on ("Aux Heat)"
Separately, it has Emergency Heat: Y1 off, Y2 off, W on.
Hope this helps.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 22 Dec 2009 09:17 PM |
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Posted By G.O. Joe on 12/21/2009 6:02 AM
... The L signal originates from the comp control board (in your case LO terminal). It can either flash or be solid 24v depending on dip sw position.
I believe it's a 0 - 5 VAC signal.
Best regards,
Bill
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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G.O. Joe
Basic Member
Posts:110
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| 23 Dec 2009 05:15 AM |
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Bill
You are correct. I confirm that the LO signal from the Envision board is per their documentation 5vac.
I believe most solid state relays used in modern control boards and thermostats are rated 5vac to 32vac. At the very least I believe with good design they should be able to operate at various voltages and protect themselves from backfeeds. For fear of releasing the factory installed smoke, you could run the LO 5vac signal thru a relay to isolate the Thermostat from the control board. This isolation might already be built in but I have no way to confirm at this point.
WF absolutely wants you to buy their branded thermostats and will not provide tech support for others. Honeywell should step up here and provide support unless they want it known that their latest and greatest thermostat doesn't work with WF.
Geome
The Prestige shown in lockout is attached to a Climatemaster Tranquility 27. I forced the lockout to confirm its function. The Info button gets you this-
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 23 Dec 2009 08:36 AM |
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GOJoe, I think your recently started contributions at greenbuilding.talk are excellent, and are highly valued. Seeing that you're an HVAC professional, thanks for having the mindset that you'll accomplish everything in your career you want if you'll just help enough other people.
I'm curious about the Prestige's Aux/E terminal. Does the Prestige engage 1st stage via Y1, 2nd stage via Y1 and Y2 (all on), and Aux heat via Y1, Y2 and W (all on)?
Can Emerg Heat be manually started with the Prestige via W on (and Y1 and Y2 off)?
If so to all of the above, with this tstat, why not leave the tstat's L terminal unconnected, noting that the Prestige appears to have this strange interface on the L terminal that in some cases it's an input and in one case it's an output?
The fact that something may have locked out the Envision is displayed on the outside of the unit. A 'left unconnected' tstat L terminal would simply mean a visit to the Envision would be required to see if/what a problem may be.
I'd sure be more comfortable with this (or changing to a tstat that does offer an L terminal compatible with the Envision's LO terminal if an indication of trouble *at the tstat* is a fundamental requirement), rather than connecting a 0-24 VAC terminal to a 0-5 VAC terminal. I just don't think this is a good practice, at minimum.
Best regards,
Bill |
|
Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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G.O. Joe
Basic Member
Posts:110
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| 23 Dec 2009 09:24 AM |
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Posted By a0128958 on 12/23/2009 8:36 AM I'm curious about the Prestige's Aux/E terminal. Does the Prestige engage 1st stage via Y1, 2nd stage via Y1 and Y2 (all on), and Aux heat via Y1, Y2 and W (all on)? Yes
Can Emerg Heat be manually started with the Prestige via W on (and Y1 and Y2 off)?
No, Emergency is a system selection such as cool, off, and heat. When set to Emergency the Prestige documentation says it outputs a constant 24v signal at L, if there is a call for heat the Prestige will then provide the W only (yah G fan also) call.
If so to all of the above, with this tstat, why not leave the tstat's L terminal unconnected, noting that the Prestige appears to have this strange interface on the L terminal that in some cases it's an input and in one case it's an output? That is the current situation and a good solution for now and but geome is asking for notification at the thermostat.
The fact that something may have locked out the Envision is displayed on the outside of the unit. A 'left unconnected' tstat L terminal would simply mean a visit to the Envision would be required to see if/what a problem may be.
I'd sure be more comfortable with this (or changing to a tstat that does offer an L terminal compatible with the Envision's LO terminal if an indication of trouble *at the tstat* is a fundamental requirement), rather than connecting a 0-24 VAC terminal to a 0-5 VAC terminal. I just don't think this is a good practice, at minimum. I agree, as a contractor it is important to specify compatible equipment. However, sometimes this can be interpreted as arrogance by the HO (Why can't I have the tstat that I want). People (myself included) are paying hundreds and hundreds of $ for these fancy Tstats and it falls on me to make them behave. Until I confirm that the equipment won't blow up, I suggest that full functionality can be had with an isolation relay.
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geome
Advanced Member
Posts:987
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| 23 Dec 2009 10:27 AM |
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Bill, I totally agree with you completely on G.O. Joe's knowledge and excellent suggestions. Thanks for noticing the voltage too! Where specifically did you see the spec for that?
I just tested our all-in one unit and our L terminal is currently not connected, and 1st stage, 2nd stage, aux heat, and emergency heat (when manually selected) all work as they should. I still like and recommend the Prestige for various reasons including the interface, dehumidify with AC mode, wireless outdoor sensor, and wireless indoor sensor/thermostat control.
My thoughts on lockout notification -
I'd rather have some other alert system for a lockout even if the Prestige can safely indicate a problem, In my opinion, thermostat system monitors, and LED's on geothermal equipment, aren't worth very much unless they also actively bring attention to a lockout condition rather than rely on a person to sense a temperature drop, or notice a problem by intentionally looking at the thermostat or system LED's. I probably look at my thermostat and geothermal unit as much as anyone here, but I would still like to know as soon as a lockout occurs so I can take action immediately.
Being alerted to a problem right away may make the difference between a repair visit from the installer the same day, or several days later depending on the time it takes for the problem to be noticed and whether a repair person is available. Chances for timely service are better during normal working hours compared to one repair person being on call, after hours or on the weekend, and possibly having multiple people in front of you. Quicker notification can also save money on backup electric heat. I have no idea how long our upstairs system was locked out before I noticed it, and I'm very observant.
An audible alert (originally suggested by stuart.wyss as a siren for aux heat) for a lockout makes perfect sense to me (for the non hearing impaired). That's why I started a separate thread on the topic. Hope great suggestions will be proposed that many people here can benefit from. |
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 23 Dec 2009 01:18 PM |
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Posted By geome on 12/23/2009 10:27 AM
... Thanks for noticing the voltage too! Where specifically did you see the spec for that?
Page 24, Envision Installation Manual. It may be noted in other places too. GOJoe, agreed. If the customer really wants a certain tstat, like the Prestige, then an isolation relay is in order. Best regards, Bill |
|
Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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geome
Advanced Member
Posts:987
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| 23 Dec 2009 01:52 PM |
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Thanks Bill, I see the 5VAC listed under the SW2-8 description. I was asking because I was hoping to find the mA rating of the output so I can possibly match a buzzer to this output. Unfortunately, I don't see it listed anywhere. I already called our installer so as not to void my warranty. I'll let everyone know if anything interesting develops. |
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 23 Dec 2009 02:05 PM |
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I would recommend some kind of isolation between the Envision's tstat terminals and other stuff.
For example, I have monitoring equipment connected to various Envision tstat terminals. I'm using 24 VDC relays, with a diode in series to the relay coil, and a capacitor across the relay coil, to provide an isolated switch function.
Best regards,
Bill |
|
Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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geotek
Basic Member
Posts:154
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| 23 Dec 2009 02:09 PM |
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Page 24, Envision Installation Manual. It may be noted in other places too.
I can't seem to find that. Could you point me to it?
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geome
Advanced Member
Posts:987
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| 23 Dec 2009 02:14 PM |
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I found the 5 VAC listed under the heading DIP SWITCH SETTINGS (SW2-8). Page 21 in the split installation manual, and page 32 in the all-in one installation manual. Glad at least one other person is interested in this!  |
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 23 Dec 2009 02:24 PM |
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Posted By geotek on 12/23/2009 2:09 PM
[i]Page 24, Envision Installation Manual. It may be noted in other places too.
[/i]I can't seem to find that. Could you point me to it?
Send to me an email or PM with your email address, and I'll reply back with a PDF attachment. It's been a while since I obtained the docs from WaterFurnace's web site. Best regards, Bill |
|
Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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geotek
Basic Member
Posts:154
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| 23 Dec 2009 06:53 PM |
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Found it, contrary to what I've been told.
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L signal is a 24VDC output and there is a
1K ohm resistor in series with the output. Also, the output is only
capable of 25 milliamps.
FYI the pulse is designed for use with WF Utec Tstats (software in the stat)
Still have no idea what Honeywell is doing with an L output in emergency mode.
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geome
Advanced Member
Posts:987
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| 23 Dec 2009 07:05 PM |
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Where did you see this? The PDF documents I have are IM1592 for the split, and IM1585 for the all-in-one. Is what you listed correct for the Pulse output, and 5VAC correct for Continuous output?
I hope my installer comes up with an answer on the Honeywell output. He is checking into it. |
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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geome
Advanced Member
Posts:987
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| 24 Dec 2009 01:18 PM |
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Posted By geotek on 12/23/2009 6:53 PM
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L signal is a 24VDC output and there is a
1K ohm resistor in series with the output. Also, the output is only
capable of 25 milliamps[/i].
Posted By geome on 12/23/2009 7:05 PM
Where
did you see this? The PDF documents I have are IM1592 for the split,
and IM1585 for the all-in-one. Is what you listed correct for the Pulse
output, and 5VAC correct for Continuous output?
geotek, can you please explain? I'm trying to nail down my lockout alert system using the buzzer that G.O. Joe found, but not sure if it will be compatible with your findings. Thanks for your help!
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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