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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 24 Apr 2011 11:49 PM |
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I have a couple issues with Paul's flavor of DX:
1) No AHRI ratings
2) A relatively rare, high glide zeotropic refrigerant, R407C is utilized. This significantly complicates maintenance. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 25 Apr 2011 11:20 AM |
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Posted By engineer on 24 Apr 2011 11:49 PM
A relatively rare, high glide zeotropic refrigerant, R407C is utilized. This significantly complicates maintenance. This significantly adds to the installation cost as it will take 30lbs of the stuff. One of the DX problems has always been keeping the refrigerant from seperating from the oil. This is among the reasons loop designs are not as flexible as water source. With Earthlinked, the way the refrigerant is handled is unique to other systems and it simply did not like R410. Refrigerants like 12 and 22 were so darned easy to work with by comparison to any of the newbies. Cheap as well. Conventional A/Cs and water source geo have been using R410 for 10-20 years now while most DX systems waited 'til a change was imposed on them. DXer's have a lot of PR work to do to convince folks that they are mainstream and they haven't suffered from refrigerant changes. j |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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tuffluckdriller
Advanced Member
Posts:630
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| 25 Apr 2011 12:17 PM |
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To get back to the OP's question, I think Waterpirate pointed out the easiest solution to his question: What are the merits of the installer for each system, and what's the price? If you can get a water-source system for less than the EarhLinked, go for it.
I like Joe's comparison of DX people acting like the little brother. We started doing geo in 1995. We did water source until 2001. We switched to EarthLinked DX in 2001, and we love how they perform here. We have hundreds of satisfied customers with geothermal (both water source and DX).
I like the advantages of DX offering a smaller footprint. Notice, I said "I" like it. I didn't say everybody must conform to my way of thinking... I like the simplicity of loop design, installation, and maintenance that EarthLinked DX offers. There are challenges that DX has, one of which is line-set length. Another is refrigerant type. 407c is about as expensive as 410a. ETI is testing many 410a installations right now. I can order a 410a EarthLinked system, if I so choose.
My point in posting all this is that EarthLinked works for us. Water source works, too! Both will save the owner thousands of dollars compared to conventional fossil fool systems. To the OP, choose the system that costs the least to install and is backed 100% by the installer & manufacturer. Both systems you listed have great manufacturers. Both have a good track record when designed, sized, installed, and applied correctly. That part is up to the installer. |
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| Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com |
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jonr
Senior Member
Posts:5341
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| 25 Apr 2011 02:19 PM |
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Is there a WEL instrumented DX system that has the data necessary to measure COP?
It might be many years before one can really say that DX systems with new refrigerants are reliably getting sufficient lubrication. |
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Paul Auerbach
New Member
Posts:88
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| 25 Apr 2011 06:45 PM |
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Ok - I'm sufficiently chastened regarding the (still yet unproven to everyone's satisfaction) efficiency advantages enjoyed by DX. But we install both water loop and DX systems. We prefer DX.
The DX systems we've installed consistently outperform our water based systems - we believe for three reasons:
- no circulator pump/flow center kWh charges against the COP
- Copper infrastructure
- One less heat transfer
- 100% DHW without dedicated loops
Joe, yes you are busting my chops. Little brother syndrome maybe - but if I hear one more time copper corrodes. Why can't they just sell professionally? We PROJECT operational costs and live by them. I can honestly say none of our clients has come back to us saying the DX systems used more electricity than what was projected.
Paul |
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geome
Advanced Member
Posts:987
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| 25 Apr 2011 07:28 PM |
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Posted By Paul Auerbach on 25 Apr 2011 06:45 PM
I can honestly say none of our clients has come back to us saying the DX systems used more electricity than what was projected.
What "overall" COP do you use in your DX projections? |
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 26 Apr 2011 01:01 AM |
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Who carries 407C in their service van / truck? Who has it at their shop?
My point is that going with a system using 407C likely weds the owner to the installing contractor for the life of the system...not a bet I'm willing to ask customers to make. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
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| 26 Apr 2011 03:08 AM |
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Posted By Paul Auerbach on 25 Apr 2011 06:45 PM
Ok - I'm sufficiently chastened regarding the (still yet unproven to everyone's satisfaction) efficiency advantages enjoyed by DX. But we install both water loop and DX systems. We prefer DX.
The DX systems we've installed consistently outperform our water based systems - we believe for three reasons:
- no circulator pump/flow center kWh charges against the COP
- Copper infrastructure
- One less heat transfer
- 100% DHW without dedicated loops
Joe, yes you are busting my chops. Little brother syndrome maybe - but if I hear one more time copper corrodes. Why can't they just sell professionally? We PROJECT operational costs and live by them. I can honestly say none of our clients has come back to us saying the DX systems used more electricity than what was projected.
Paul
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| www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
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docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
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| 26 Apr 2011 03:09 AM |
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Posted By Paul Auerbach on 25 Apr 2011 06:45 PM
Ok - I'm sufficiently chastened regarding the (still yet unproven to everyone's satisfaction) efficiency advantages enjoyed by DX. But we install both water loop and DX systems. We prefer DX.
The DX systems we've installed consistently outperform our water based systems - we believe for three reasons:
- no circulator pump/flow center kWh charges against the COP
- Copper infrastructure
- One less heat transfer
- 100% DHW without dedicated loops
Joe, yes you are busting my chops. Little brother syndrome maybe - but if I hear one more time copper corrodes. Why can't they just sell professionally? We PROJECT operational costs and live by them. I can honestly say none of our clients has come back to us saying the DX systems used more electricity than what was projected.
Paul
Paul, we are aware of the theoretical advantages of the DX systems, however, there are also practical disadvantages. Since you are monitoring your system, would you be able to post real life performance data here, so we could follow your notion of higher efficiency?
Thanks in advance. |
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| www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
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acwizard
Basic Member
Posts:265
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| 26 Apr 2011 05:04 AM |
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Posted By engineer on 26 Apr 2011 01:01 AM
Who carries 407C in their service van / truck? Who has it at their shop?
My point is that going with a system using 407C likely weds the owner to the installing contractor for the life of the system...not a bet I'm willing to ask customers to make. 407C is being used in a lot of commercial a/c units and chillers. 407C is not azeotropic, it is a ternary blend of HFC-32/HFC-125/HFC-134a. It does have a moderately high glide of 9F to 13F depending upon pressure. It is a very close match to R-22 and can be retrofitted in existing R-22 systems. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 26 Apr 2011 08:52 AM |
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Posted By Paul Auerbach on 25 Apr 2011 06:45 PM
Ok - I'm sufficiently chastened regarding the (still yet unproven to everyone's satisfaction) efficiency advantages enjoyed by DX. But we install both water loop and DX systems. We prefer DX.
The DX systems we've installed consistently outperform our water based systems - we believe for three reasons:
- no circulator pump/flow center kWh charges against the COP
- Copper infrastructure
- One less heat transfer
- 100% DHW without dedicated loops
Joe, yes you are busting my chops. Little brother syndrome maybe - but if I hear one more time copper corrodes. Why can't they just sell professionally? We PROJECT operational costs and live by them. I can honestly say none of our clients has come back to us saying the DX systems used more electricity than what was projected.
Paul Paul, We've always appreciated Clark's even handed approach. One can be a champion of their product without propaganda. I don't know what you could possibly mean by DHW without dedicated loops. Many systems can make DHW, but one must make allowance for the BTU's required regardless of exchange type. If you don't then more aux. will be required. Never had complaints about a system? Hmmmmm. J |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Paul Auerbach
New Member
Posts:88
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| 26 Apr 2011 09:22 AM |
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Posted By joe.ami on 26 Apr 2011 08:52 AM
Posted By Paul Auerbach on 25 Apr 2011 06:45 PM
Ok - I'm sufficiently chastened regarding the (still yet unproven to everyone's satisfaction) efficiency advantages enjoyed by DX. But we install both water loop and DX systems. We prefer DX.
The DX systems we've installed consistently outperform our water based systems - we believe for three reasons:
- no circulator pump/flow center kWh charges against the COP
- Copper infrastructure
- One less heat transfer
- 100% DHW without dedicated loops
Joe, yes you are busting my chops. Little brother syndrome maybe - but if I hear one more time copper corrodes. Why can't they just sell professionally? We PROJECT operational costs and live by them. I can honestly say none of our clients has come back to us saying the DX systems used more electricity than what was projected.
Paul
Paul,
We've always appreciated Clark's even handed approach. One can be a champion of their product without propaganda.
I don't know what you could possibly mean by DHW without dedicated loops. Many systems can make DHW, but one must make allowance for the BTU's required regardless of exchange type. If you don't then more aux. will be required.
Never had complaints about a system? Hmmmmm.
J
J, I appreciate the valuable service this forum is to the geothermal industry. If you haven't noticed, our business including all technologies are given short shrift in the pantheon of renewable energy and energy efficiency solutions - by both government and the media. Despite the fact when carefully examined ALL geothermal is better than wind and solar. We don't wrap ourselves in the flag, but we make no bones about the subsidies being offered to solar, wind, biogas (more carbon emitters) whatever. And where that money ends up. With the business being split by bickering technologies (remember Beta/VHS) we're all hurt. Take a look at the push the ANGA is doing. Get us all hooked up to the gas pipe so they can gain control of everyone's heating system. Not a conspiracy, just good American capitalism. And beating our butts. Every conversion to natural gas is rightfully a geothermal installation if everyone were on the same page. I'm guilty when it comes to crowing the virtues of DX. But we're careful not to knock water loops in the sales process. Yeah, it upsets me when an author tells us during researching his book on geothermal that more than one "Geothermal" trade association literally wouldn't talk to him because DX was mentioned in his book. Not "baby brother"..."Big Brother." Never having complaints is a bit bombastic - sorry - I should have said "None that we weren't able to fix and make the client happy." A reference for both geothermal and my company P |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 26 Apr 2011 10:00 AM |
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When I said I wasn't busting your chops I meant it.
My perception again of the biggest shortcomings of DX are easily fixed if the DX manufacturers' association would get it done:
1) Get recognized by the ICC- Their code continues to insist on hydronic loop tests and doesn't seem to know DX exists.
2) The code also insists on expensive detectors for the volume of refrigerant installed in these products. That is going to have to be addressed.
3) Get some real time real data- my suspicion is average COPs will be similar regardless of exchange type as the ground is the limiting feature. I await evidence to the contrary.
4) Provide comparitive performance demonstrations of post R-22 systems.
5) Stop taking all comers to market product. Be more selective in dealer approval and training.....double standard, yep. Water source boys take all comers, but they are not in an uphill battle for reputation and acceptance.
6) Stop claiming universal superiority. You might have applications where DX could be superior, but there are scenarios where it would be inferior to water as well.
7) Avoid easily discredited claims when championining the product (again might be a double standard).
8) Pay for and aquire all the same AHRI, UL or whatever certifications the bigboys in water source have.
Most around here try to be evenhanded and stress installer first. I have travelled and trained in two different DX systems. At this time I favor watersource for a variety of reasons (most not pertinant to these discussions).
My BS meter does not single out DXers (wait 'til the next well driller says his loops are more efficient).
Thicken your skin. The next time someone says copper rots in the ground simply respond "that is absolutely correct if manufacturer guide lines are ignored and sum dumb-a$# installs a DX where water source would be a better fit." That's the kind of response that will give you and your product more credibility than all the combined chest thumps.
j |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Paul Auerbach
New Member
Posts:88
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| 26 Apr 2011 10:16 AM |
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Well reasoned response...
The leading DX manufacturers make good equipment (for the most part) but suck at building the geo business.
Your comments will be shared with people who can make these things happen.
Paul
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