Posted By lzerarc on 24 Jan 2011 03:59 PM
curious...was your prices including ducting and everything as well?  Or just equiptment?  I got a quote from a climamater 3 ton 2 stage HP, desuper heater, horizontal wells installed for 13,500.  Ducting, HRV, filtrations would need to be added to this as well.  However it is my understanding that the credit only applies to the 13,500 number, not the total number (say another 6k for the rest?)
However your EER and COP is higher.  EER is 25 and COP is right around 4.0. 

You previously mentioned:
"Geo specs and included in price:  3 ton, 2 stage waterfurnace Syn. 3. w/ horizontal fields.  Desuperheater w/ buffer tank for infloor heat. infloor install (not the full 1550 sqft, rather about 600sqft of that) ERV, all duct work.  $35k"
and:
"Other people I have talked to are estimating more around 25-28k."

Much of the initial discussion focused on the 35K number.
You also had a quote for a more conventional system:
"They have also supplied another option of an all electric Lennox 2 ton 16EER HP w/ electric 2 stage air handler and backup heat.  ERV, all duct work, 12,500."

Suddenly you can get a geo system for $19,500.
So based on your numbers $19,500 less 30% of $13,500 ($4,050)= $15,450 or $2,950 more than the 2 ton Lennox system.
Sounds like a no brainer, is there something else you haven't mentioned? How much for a 2 ton geo?

j

not that I know of, that should be about everything.  they are working up a formal quote with breakouts of everything.  I was researching ducting last night for costs, and I am considering doing that install myself since I have done it before.  the layout if very simple, a main trunk feed running horizontally across the house, and the heat runs branching straight off of that between the floor structure.
I would have one of my engineers size it correctly for feeds, reducer locations, etc.  I priced it out last night, a quick estimate including diffusers looks to be around 2k for materials.  The geo installers would build the main trunk that connects to the unit.  After that it is all standard rectangular or round ducting in straight lines. 
I would still need to add an HRV.  So that 19500 price could be even less.  They also said I can work with them or supply the tranches for a horizontal well and the 13500 price would decrease more.

How about this one for new construction?

WF 5-ton NSW Geothermal to water (heat only)
120g Buffer tank
80g DHW tank
Horizontal ground loop

NO electrical.
NO excavation.

$30K

Add 4,300 sf 12 zone radiant system
PEX loops, concrete by others
Includes pumps, controllers and sensors
NO electrical

$27K

TOTAL - $57K (+ excavation and electrician)

Posted By ICFHybrid on 28 Jan 2011 11:25 AM
How about this one for new construction?

WF 5-ton NSW Geothermal to water (heat only)
120g Buffer tank
80g DHW tank
Horizontal ground loop

NO electrical.
NO excavation.

$30K

Add 4,300 sf 12 zone radiant system
PEX loops, concrete by others
Includes pumps, controllers and sensors
NO electrical

$27K

TOTAL - $57K (+ excavation and electrician)

Not much context here

Not much context here

Do you mean in terms of an alternative heating plant design or a more cost-effective solution to this particular quote?

Not much detail to understand what is provided, or product details.
If you were buying the pieces over the counter I'd say it's a rip off.
If they are installing all the pcs it would be more than I get but I also don't have the context of location, cost of doing business etc.
j

Not much detail to understand what is provided, or product details.

I chose this one because it is more detailed than about 4 out of 5 of the others I have. It's for a "full install" in new construction. I did leave out the words "piping", "hardware", "install labor" and "mfr warranty" if that's what you are missing. "Electrical" and "excavation" is specifically excluded as I noted above.

Edit to add: Sorry, I also missed the words "410A Heat Pump".

Ok ICF, you elected to leave things out, what point are you trying to make?
j

I didn't think they mattered too much, but you asked about detail, so, there they are.

???????
there what are????? (bad grammar on purpose)
does anyone else get it?
j

there what are????? (bad grammar on purpose)

The details.

You said "Not much detail to understand what is provided, or product details. "

So, I put everything on there, in case the details mattered to the evaluation of the quote.

That's all it is.

Posted By joe.ami on 28 Jan 2011 11:06 PM

does anyone else get it?

Nope, but here are some amazing football scores:

14 : 7
21 : 0
34 : 10

Incredible upsets, huh?

ICF,
"I also don't have the context of location, cost of doing business etc." Did you miss this note?
I guess you are trying to make the point that some companies want a lot of money and offer you little?
If you were in Canada that price wouldn't suprise me (they seem to pay more), East coast maybe not MI yeah it would be high.
Just throwing numbers with out context offers little.
Certainly if you get quotes that are high for your area, you probably want to employ someone else.

Great games Looby I trust my Lions weren't amongst the "up setting" teams!
j

"I also don't have the context of location, cost of doing business etc." Did you miss this note?

It's just outside Seattle. I guess one of the purposes of getting enough quotes is to find a contractor who controls their "cost of doing business" better than another, huh?
When I told this particular contractor that the quote was not competitive, they explained it was because they pay a "living wage" to their people.
Then, they offered to bring the price down by putting a second-string crew on it. Presumably, they don't get the "living wage".
Then, they said they had built in an upcoming "manufacturer's price increase". If I could order right now and give them $12,000 down, they could get the price down further.

After looking at the bids received from contractors who are "selling a system" for a single bottom-line price vs the ones who are willing to show you what you are buying, (i.e. component prices and labor estimates), I'd have to say that getting good pricing upfront contributes a whole lot to the cost/benefit analysis of some of these heating solutions.

Just to clarify a few points on the Daikin Altherma:

- The Altherma isn't a "mini-split" in the traditional sense, so you don't need a unit in every room.
- The Altherma is a hydronics based system, and you would plumb it into radiant, or a forced air water coil.
- The system itself isn't all that complex, any radiant/boiler installer that's competent should be able to handle it with ease.
- COP is just north of 2.0 @ 0F inclusive of the defrost cycles, and if you look at their engineering manual I believe it does state the testing conditions (humidity, etc.), but their defrost cycles aren't timed, they are on as needed.
- No, it's not as efficient as geothermal, but it's not as expensive either, so you kind of have to weight your options here depending on size/install costs/fuel costs. The biggest savings here compared to a geothermal is the trenching/drilling costs.
- You can go all the way up to a "54k" unit on the Altherma that will produce about 25kBTU/h @ 0F, and then add up to a 6kW resistant heat backup as well, so the Altherma can satisfy the heat loads of the original poster, with resistant heat for those super cold nights.
- The seasonal COP will be much higher than 2.0; I'd suspect closer to 3.0, but depends on your area. Your Altherma dealer can get a calc done from Daikin that will show seasonal usage based on locale, heat load, and design temp.
- Like the geo with a desuper, you can heat domestic with the Altherma as well, so some potential savings there.
- Costwise, on the Altherma equipment, expect $13k-$20kUSD +/- for the outdoor unit, the indoor unit, whether you want the domestic tank, solar water option for the hot water (not including the panel), and the resistant heat.

I have one installed and running for an area with design temp of -4F, and it's been running fine so far.

Victor
www.ecobuilthome.ca
A 4350sqft cold climate Net Zero Energy initiative

Victor, at what temperature are you running that basement tubing? What is the floor area and is it all PEX in concrete?

Loop temp is set at 80F using a mixing valve, but the whole loop is running at 113F for the forced air water coil.  Floor area is a little more than 2000sqft, using all PEX stapled onto EPS before the concrete pour.




Victor
www.ecobuilthome.ca
A 4350sqft cold climate Net Zero Energy initiative

A nice low temp system.

Is the slab steel above or below the EPS?

Do you have any insulation in the floor on the 1st floor (the basement ceiling)?

And, do you have any data on how much heat is going into the basement vs the upper floors? Did you set the target right at design load for the basement or did you set it higher as a margin of comfort? I'm trying to figure out how much basement heat migrates upward.

Ahh ICF,
you are slowly learning that some are marketing companies (we'll take off ....$ if you order now) and some are service companies (....this is what I need to do it right). Protect yourself with multiple bids and you'll be fine.
Suggest you want a comprehensive cost breakdown from the service companies and they'll not have time for you.
J

That company is among the top five in the state in terms of units installed. Installed, not sold. It was an installation quote and the price reduction offer also included installation. Interestingly enough, the "down payment" required was precise, giving me a pretty good idea of their invoice cost for the hardware.

Suggest you want a comprehensive cost breakdown from the service companies and they'll not have time for you.
J

Sounds like a mutually satisfactory business (non)arrangement. For now.