Hi.  This is my first post.  I've been considering Geothermal for my home on Long Island, NY for 3 years now.  I have received quotes of 45 to 55K for a 4 ton system from a very limited number of contractors (limited because it seems very difficult to find a geo thermal contractor in this region for some reason). 

I MUST replace my oil heating system as a matter of principle.  I am considering natural gas for about 8K but would much perfer geothermal since we all know it's the way to go, and besides, its just so cool! 

Anyway, I can't afford 45-55K.  I have seen a number of outfits on the internet that advertise systems for do-it-yourselfers for 20k or less.  I am a handy guy and have access to excavation equipment, etc..  However from what I have read in these forums, it is more complicated than just drilling holes running pipe and plugging it in.  For something that looks too good to be true, can anyone tell me what to look out for with these on-line outfits?  Also does anyone have a story, good or bad, about someone who got involved in a DIY geothermal project?

geothermal is one of the better solutions but I wouldn't go that far to say "we all know it's the way to go". It may be the way to go in some situations but with a sticker price of 45 to 55k it is hard for me to see where that would make sense. DIY geothermal might be a solution but as with all DIY solutions there are always downsides - lack of support, possible warranty problems. one size fits all type of design and the list could probably go on.

don't rule out gas yet. there are very elegant solutions around gas which will offer you something that any other system on the market can't offer you - back-up power
check out the freewatt system - http://www.freewatt.com/
it might be a good fit for you.

air to air heat pumps got really close to geothermal heat pumps in terms of efficiency for a much lower price and they work these days even in really low temperatures. there is a thread going on right now about daikin altherma - hydronic air to air.
have a look at mitshubishi - they have a forced air central system - zuba - I think and some very efficient stand alone - mr Slim.

good luck
Adrian

Ya betcha you can, and for less than 10% of the cost of commercial systems!

Look at my post in the 'why do gt systems cost so much' thread, a later one dated 08 Mar 2011 03:26 PM.
BTW, 'geothermal' to engineers means ground temps over 150C, I personally dislike the use of 'geo' for GSHP, another example of marketing abusing the technical vocabulary.

A good DIY with engineering knowledge and plenty of tools and equipment and who has a good backyard 'scrounge' greenpile, can DIY a 5T ground or water source HP for under $1000 easily. Helps to have electronic knowledge also to design your own controls, etc. If anything at all technically intimidates you, then you probably should not even get out of bed in the morning

I heat my 5300 sq ft house in Seattle area with my $500 W/GSHP for about $150 month electric bill.

It helps to read a lot first and also to have over 50 years engineering experience and a big scrounge pile too. learn what a mollier diagram is and understand it, and you are 1/2 way there. The old standby, the ARI AC textbook is a good start to read for all the practical needs. A good scrounge pile does take a few decades to accumulate My scrounge pile yielded a big old carrier condensor & TXV, a few score feet of Cu pipe, blowers, etc, but did have to buy a good scroll comporessor witch was most of the cost. Contrary to some 'pro' advice, you can clean old copper to be as good as new - involves ferric chloride, soap and water, and good vacuum pump and air compressor. A DIY with just a skill saw and soldering iron needs to invest in a few grand of new tools, but then you will have the tools the rest of your life.

Going back many years, my first DIY HP was in 1972 using scrap ACs from cars, a wrecked '64 imperial comes to mind as one of the sources. Made some mistakes on that one (like thinking I could solder vs braze) but learned a lot.

Good luck.

Posted By junkhound on 09 Mar 2011 06:04 PM
It helps to read a lot first and also to have over 50 years engineering experience
and a big scrounge pile too.

It ain't Real™ DIY if you don't mine and smelt your own metals, draw your
own copper pipe, and fabricate the compressor parts on your own forge.

OR, you could get a real job that pays enough to hire professionals -- while
you and SWMBO sip Clos de Vougeot in a romantic little bistro in Dijon.

...whatever floats your boat,

Looby

jim5821, you need professional advise. I would suggest contacting Joe @ ami. I'm sure he would be willing to discuss this with you.

I'm working with a competent, experienced LI contractor on a long distance consulting gig...let me know if you want to make contact.

systems for do-it-yourselfers for 20k or less.

Try $7,500 for a quality 4 ton unit which includes a horizontal loop package. Shipping is free.

Shipping is never free.  There is support, handling, and shipping built into the $7500 price.
There are ways to get equipment for less than this from reliable distributors who can provide design and support services.
20k is way too much for a 4 ton DIY system.

ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/.../msg1220262411684.html
This will tell you a little about one DIY product. Design matters much, as does lot size. If you have to go vertical, that could easily be 1/2 the job price. DIY drilling is not likely. You could do a project yourself without building a Frankenstein out of spare body parts. First you need a manual J load and some design advice, then a source for equipment/materials.... My company offers customers design to turn-key service. You may be able to find similar local support. Good Luck, Joe

Shipping is never free.

I think that the use of the word "FREE" in this situation indicates that there will be no additional charges to appear on the invoicing for the delivery of the unit package.

The contractors I have spoken with so far have informed me that my half acre lot (minus house, driveway etc.) is not going to accomodate a horizontal loop system. A vertical system is what would be called for. We have a wonderful aquifer on Long Island which makes it an Ideal place for these type of systems, I am told.

First a little figuring - Between Late December and Late January it was very cold on Long Island this winter. My oil burner used 200.2 gal of heating oil (about 28 million btu) in 34 days. Since about 20% of that went up the chimney, I figure 22.4 million btu were consumed to actually heat the place, or about 217 therms. A natural gas system at 90%+ efficiency would eliminate much of the heat going up the chimney so to produce 217 therms to heat the place I would have to purchase about 230 therms. The local utility here charges $1.40 per therm delivered with taxes etc.. So for a cold winter I could dump my $800 cold month oil bill in favor of $325 for gas.

So I guess even before the DIY question is resolved in my mind, I need to answer this: If a 4 ton system will do the job to heat my house, will it do it for $325 or less (in a cold month) in electricity costs? Keep in mind that the delivered cost of electric here in NY is 21.5 cents a kilowatt hour. I have a 8.1KW solar system installed on my house which covers my electric. However I will be paying the power company for the additional usage, especially in the winter when the system makes less than half of what its rated for.

joe.ami - Does your company offer this type of support to non-local customers? I really get very little interest from local suppliers here in NY. As I stated earlier there are very few knowledgable geo professionals in this area. The few that are out there are all concentrated around the ultra high end home construction business in the Hamptons (even some the well drillers wont travel a few miles west to look at my property).

You absolutly need to factor everything in. Geo might not be a good fit for you, but there is a gal on LI that is very pleased with hers (she posts here occasionally). Between her solar and geo she mentioned a 19 cent july electric bill.
I would think the "freewatt" might be something for you to consider with those kw rates. They are as popular as cancer in MI where rates are as low as 7.5 cents/kwh but with your rates......
j

Posted By jim5821 on 10 Mar 2011 10:52 AM
The contractors I have spoken with so far have informed me that my half acre lot (minus house, driveway etc.) is not going to accomodate a horizontal loop system. A vertical system is what would be called for. We have a wonderful aquifer on Long Island which makes it an Ideal place for these type of systems, I am told.

First a little figuring - Between Late December and Late January it was very cold on Long Island this winter. My oil burner used 200.2 gal of heating oil (about 28 million btu) in 34 days. Since about 20% of that went up the chimney, I figure 22.4 million btu were consumed to actually heat the place, or about 217 therms. A natural gas system at 90%+ efficiency would eliminate much of the heat going up the chimney so to produce 217 therms to heat the place I would have to purchase about 230 therms. The local utility here charges $1.40 per therm delivered with taxes etc.. So for a cold winter I could dump my $800 cold month oil bill in favor of $325 for gas.

So I guess even before the DIY question is resolved in my mind, I need to answer this: If a 4 ton system will do the job to heat my house, will it do it for $325 or less (in a cold month) in electricity costs? Keep in mind that the delivered cost of electric here in NY is 21.5 cents a kilowatt hour. I have a 8.1KW solar system installed on my house which covers my electric. However I will be paying the power company for the additional usage, especially in the winter when the system makes less than half of what its rated for.

At those prices you would need a COP over 4 just to break even with a 90% furnace. Unless you expect gas to rise a lot faster than electricity you'll probably spend more with the geo system.

joe.ami - You are correct. I have zero electric bills in the sunny months. Of course if a geo system is ging to add another 6500KWH to my electric useage I may not be doing the most economic thing. I am not that familiar with freewatt. Have there been good reviews of that technology?

It ain't Real™ DIY if you don't mine and smelt your own metals, draw your
own copper pipe, and fabricate the compressor parts on your own forge.


Yep, agree with that. My big diy project in mind for retirement is to build a tube radio from scratch, including digging some sand and glass blowing, making batteries, etc. Pretty soon the old straw about anything over 100 years old anybody can DIY will not be true, there are a few alloys I'd be ahrd pressed to duplicate at home that were around in 1911.

Gotta admit though, my biggest 'mines' are dumps and what others throw away

BTW, as fare as 'real diy' I do have a forge and machine shop and some smelting capabilities (although some of the anti-polution ordanances the state put in place 20 years ago kinda shut down my used motor oil fired cast iron capability)

Hey, though, technology is great, didja know you can actually melt cast iron in a microwave oven?? Did away with that messy miniature cupola.

Jim,

This is a pretty good spreadsheet to compare cost of different fuels. - www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls

Plugging in
$.215 for electric and a COP of 3.3 gives you a cost of $19.09 per Million Btus
$1.40 natural gas; 90% efficiency - $15.56 per Million Btus


As Joe said, take a look at www.freewatt.com. I started looking into it before I went with the Geo system but ruled it out quickly because I do not have access to natural gas. The system produces both electric and heat. You can fine stuff on utube as well. Actual systems running, etc.... they seem pretty quiet.

Jim, as I said Freewatt is not a big hit here so I confess to little research.
I can support outta state DIY some but think you are best served by boots on the ground for local idiosynchs.
Try IGSHPA certified installer. You might find a driller that doesn't sell heat pumps himself but will help you.
Let's keep talking and while you are at it google your neighbor Sunnyflies.
j

The numbers favour gas.

http://www.baxi.co.uk/products/combinedheatandpower.htm for more CHP units.