Posted By jim5821 on 10 Mar 2011 10:52 AM
 
...The local utility here charges $1.40 per therm delivered with taxes etc.. So for a cold winter I could dump my $800 cold month oil bill in favor of $325 for gas.

So I guess even before the DIY question is resolved in my mind, I need to answer this: If a 4 ton system will do the job to heat my house, will it do it for $325 or less (in a cold month) in electricity costs? Keep in mind that the delivered cost of electric here in NY is 21.5 cents a kilowatt hour. I have a 8.1KW solar system installed on my house which covers my electric. However I will be paying the power company for the additional usage, especially in the winter when the system makes less than half of what its rated for.

Is it possible to install a DIY system, Absolutely, but it's not easy to do. One of your biggest challenges aside from technical knowledge is purchasing the system. Most manufacturers do not want to be bothered to sell directly to homeowners, they ask for too much support and if the system doesn't work as advertised they give the company bad press. They would much rather deal with certified HVAC contractors, way less support and less of a chance the install will be F'd up.

Just because you have an aquifer to tap into, that doesn't necessarily mean it's suitable for a Geothermal system. In fact most of the well water in the United States has water unsuitable for Geothermal system. It has too many impurities in it, clogging the system. It's a maintenance nightmare. I would recommend trying to locate other people in your area that have geothermal systems and see what type of systems they have.

Without a Heat Loss Calculation, it's impossible to estimate what your saving will be, if any.  In some instances, geothermal just doesn't make sense, when you figure out the cost of the system vs saving and the cost of say a Natural Gas system.



         

One of your biggest challenges aside from technical knowledge is purchasing the system. Most manufacturers do not want to be bothered to sell directly to homeowners,

I'm sorry; I'm not following that too well. How big a challenge can it be to get a unit when you can buy complete packages online and shipped to your door?

Posted By ICFHybrid on 14 Mar 2011 11:33 AM
How big a challenge can it be to get a unit when you can buy
complete packages online and shipped to your door?

Good luck getting a WF, CM, or FHP unit that way. OTOH, you can always
depend on ebay as a reliable source for "as is" units that fell off the truck.

Hey, never thought of that. Look at all these EBay geo systems!
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=geothermal&_sacat=See-All-Categories

There are certainly geo systems available via the internet. We found one product with no internet policy as we were business modeling the DIY.COM thing....coming soon btw.
Our model however is to simply stretch our service area here meaning I don't care to sell one more than a few hundred miles from us so that we can help if needed.
I don't discourage DIY, I sell it, but encourage folks to have a local contractor partner if possible to help with warranty issues or service etc.
joe

as we were business modeling the DIY.COM thing....coming soon btw.

No kidding?

Have you talked with the Vulture Capitalists, yet?

Posted By ICFHybrid on 14 Mar 2011 11:33 AM

One of your biggest challenges aside from technical knowledge is purchasing the system. Most manufacturers do not want to be bothered to sell directly to homeowners,

I'm sorry; I'm not following that too well. How big a challenge can it be to get a unit when you can buy complete packages online and shipped to your door?

As I said, most manufactures do not want to be bothered. Water Furnace, Climate Master and Florida Heat Pumps are all sold exclusively through certified HVAC contractors. Perhaps some of these are re-brand by other outfits and sold directly to the public, but these three brands cover 90% of the Geothermal market, either directly or through re-branding. Geo-comfort for example is a basically a Climate master with a different label on the side of the unit. Terrasouce for example sells directly to the consumer market, but I haven't a clue who makes there units, they could very well make it themselves, but you really don't want to be get a system made like Yugo's. (for all you youngsters out there, Yugo was a brand of automobile imported from Yugoslavia in 1985, it was the cheapest car on the market, but also the cheapest made one as well.)

The three major brands have a long History of making quality products, a new brand may or may not live up to the hype of there marketing team.      

With a little web research, it appears Terracourse are re-branded Tetco systems. Tetco is made by Enertech manufacturing, which also makes Geocomfort. Geocomfort are re-branded Climate Master systems, so more than likely Tetco are Climate masters as well. Pretty much every brand can be traced back to the big three, they might have different control modules, but the compressors which are the heart of the system are only made by a few people.
  

Posted By joe.ami on 14 Mar 2011 12:10 PM
There are certainly geo systems available via the internet. We found one product with no internet policy as we were business modeling the DIY.COM thing....coming soon btw.
Our model however is to simply stretch our service area here meaning I don't care to sell one more than a few hundred miles from us so that we can help if needed.
I don't discourage DIY, I sell it, but encourage folks to have a local contractor partner if possible to help with warranty issues or service etc.
joe

Even though I am not a HVAC contractor, I think it's a great idea. My suggestion would be to set your rates well above what a normal contractor charges. The more hand holding and support a customers require, the more it costs them to install the system. This way a competent Do-it-yourself costs will be minimal, but someone without a clue costs will be a lot higher.  As only selling locally, you really limit yourself to a small geographic area, why not ship nationally and subcontract work out to other local contractors if the homeowner needs more support. As I said your changing more, so you can still make a profit if you subcontract would out.  

My suggestion would be to set your rates well above what a normal contractor charges

Huh? How would this be a formula for DIY.COM success?

Posted By ICFHybrid on 14 Mar 2011 05:03 PM

My suggestion would be to set your rates well above what a normal contractor charges.

How would this be a formula for DIY.COM success?

What is the point of Do-It-Yourself projects? To do it yourself and save a lot of money. So say I need a system and I want to get it from Joe.  Joe tells me I need to get a Manual J, I tell Joe what the results of the manual J are, Joe recommends a system and has one shipped to me. I put the system in and save a mint and Joe makes a nice little profit with minimal effort.  

But what if I don't know how to do a manual J. Now Joe has to be on the phone for a hour explaining to me how to do a Manual J, Joe even sells me the software and supports me how to use it. The amount of time and effort Joe has increases significantly, Joe should be compensated for his time so Joe charges more money then a local contractor to make up for his stress and aggravation.

So I get this big box in the mail, what do i do with it now. Once again it's to the phone to call Joe. And Joe bills for his time accordingly.

In the long run, if I use Joe for the entire project, it actually costs me more to use Joe than it would have to hire a local HVAC contractor, but the point of Do-it-yourself model is if you can't connect plumbing pipes together, maybe you shouldn't be do-it-yourself in the first place. I'm sure it's attractive to everyone to pay thousands less for a heating system, but some people shouldn't be holding a screw driver, let alone doing plumbing and electrical connections.

If I was Joe I would want to encourage people that have a clue what they are doing and discourage those that are don't. Those that don't will cause more aggravation and grief then its worth in the long run, it's better not to have them customers in the first place. And one of the ways to do that is charge $50 a hour more an hour for my time, than other local HVAC contractors charge.

If I do my homework and have all my ducks in a row, I can bother Joe the least amount of time and get want I need from him. If want to bother Joe for every little question and want a lot of hand holding, Joe should charge for that level service.
         

so Joe charges more money then a local contractor to make up for his stress and aggravation

No offense intended to Joe, but why should his stress and aggravation be more highly compensated than the local contractor? What's more, aren't Joe's expenses much less than the traditional brick and mortar outfit?

So I get this big box in the mail, what do i do with it now.

That is traditionally handled by an instruction manual. DIY'ers are accustomed to those.

but the point of Do-it-yourself model is if you can't connect plumbing pipes together, maybe you shouldn't be do-it-yourself in the first place.

The point of the DIY model is to make money for Joe and save money for the DIY'er. If you don't have a plan that can do that then your DIY business model will fail.

And one of the ways to do that is charge $50 a hour more an hour for my time, than other local HVAC contractors charge.

I see what you are trying to get at, but I really think the better plan would be to encourage the DIY'er to use your (substantially lower priced) online services just as much as he or she wants or needs.

Posted By TechGromit on 14 Mar 2011 04:44 PM
 

With a little web research, it appears Terracourse are re-branded Tetco systems. Tetco is made by Enertech manufacturing, which also makes Geocomfort. Geocomfort are re-branded Climate Master systems, so more than likely Tetco are Climate masters as well. Pretty much every brand can be traced back to the big three, they might have different control modules, but the compressors which are the heart of the system are only made by a few people.
  

Just to clarify,   Enertech manufactures Hydron, GeoComfort and Tecto.    They do not rebrand any Climatemaster Units.

I know I can install a wood or pellet stove.

I am pretty sure I could install a radiant system. I have done bits

Not sure I would want to get involved with forced air.

Geothermal, well not the drilling, would need to get someone to do that, but what is the issue with the rest of it? Why is it so complicated to install.

Posted By TechGromit on 14 Mar 2011 04:44 PM

Posted By ICFHybrid on 14 Mar 2011 11:33 AM

One of your biggest challenges aside from technical knowledge is purchasing the system. Most manufacturers do not want to be bothered to sell directly to homeowners,

I'm sorry; I'm not following that too well. How big a challenge can it be to get a unit when you can buy complete packages online and shipped to your door?

 Geo-comfort for example is a basically a Climate master with a different label on the side of the unit.

The three major brands have a long History of making quality products, a new brand may or may not live up to the hype of there marketing team.      

With a little web research, it appears Terracourse are re-branded Tetco systems. Tetco is made by Enertech manufacturing, which also makes Geocomfort. Geocomfort are re-branded Climate Master systems, so more than likely Tetco are Climate masters as well. Pretty much every brand can be traced back to the big three, they might have different control modules, but the compressors which are the heart of the system are only made by a few people.
  

You could not be more wrong about GeoComfort. Enertech Mfg. , at one time, sold Climate Master then started re-branding Water Furnace as GeoComfort.  Enertech purchased Hydron Module several years ago and now produces Hydron Module, Tetco and GeoComfort. They are the ONLY unit on the market that is right return, left return, upflow or downflow all in ONE cabinet!!

Bergy

Why is it so complicated to install.

It is not, that is the secret. Anybody who can do auto repair can easily install a heat pump, esp now with units mandated to have 410A or similar where no EPA license is needed. The last 15 years of EPA licensing for R22 plus gov. rebates allowed installers to ratchet the price way up and eliminate most DIY for vapor cycle of any type.

Having both done a lot of car repair and designed an built 5 heat pumps (2 of them GSHP), I would class installing a commercial ready made unit like WF or CM asMUCH EASIER and lower risk than replacing the head gasket on a late model car. Really easy if WSHP or GSHP if you have your own backhoe.

Didja know you can buy a used backhoe and keep it afterwards and still be lots of $$ ahead DIY for GSHP?? heh, heh.... since you mention a well, that is DIY possible also...

Horizontal might be a bit tricky around here, frost line goes down to 10ft. But I would like a backhoe.

K all,
DIY model is U save money, I make money. I don't go national however 'cause I care about the out come and wanna help.
Only thing complicated to install about geos is whatever you can't do.
Mystery scares people away, education/instruction does not.
Sorry Bergy, Bard makes a multiposition heat pump.
(thanks for not offending me ICF, I knew we were pals).....stress comes to those who can't tell someone they would be better served by company B.......I'm self employed.
j

It is not, that is the secret.

OMG. You're such a heretic.

Posted By junkhound on 15 Mar 2011 01:03 AM


Really easy if WSHP or GSHP if you have your own backhoe.

Didja know you can buy a used backhoe and keep it afterwards and still be lots of $$ ahead DIY for GSHP?? heh, heh.... since you mention a well, that is DIY possible also...

There's a heavy equipment auction nearby where I live. The contractors buy equipment on auction, use it for what ever job they need it for then resell it at the next auction. It not necessary to buy and keep a backhoe, depending on demand, it's even possible to buy something in an auction use it for what ever you need it for and sell it for a small profit at the next auction.  

not necessary to buy and keep a backhoe -- good comment, esp for those who dont have the room or long term need, BUT,

since 'heretic' was mentioned in a previous thread.....didnt ya know that the whole purpose of buying tools is keeping them? As in that famous quote "He who dies with the most tools wins" ??