Here's the thing Will,
If my customers have 2 compressors fail in a short period of time, they aren't going to pay anything until I get to the bottom of it. You are looking for answers because the guy who made more on your project than Climatemaster isn't looking for answers. Why should he?
Now another company is involved in the repairs? Well heck the original installer made all the money so the repair company has to charge you to fix it.
I've installed scores of geos of more than 1 brand. Every brand I've sold and those I haven't need repairs and some times stuff happens. The difference for my customers is that I service what I install and I do not limit my warranty terms to the manufacturers' terms.
You may indeed have a lemon, but it is your dealer not the manufacturer. The manufacturer's obligations have since ceased but they are willing to exceed them. It is a shame your original installer isn't doing the same. Frankly someone considering Climatemaster should be encouraged that they are exceeding their legal obligation in attempt to satisfy a customer. Another reminder to all it matters more who you buy from not what you buy.

Climatemaster has not been very supportive....

I have been contacted by Climatemaster on my issue and all I get is "we are looking into it" but never get an actual people calling to address the issue. The contractor in Norfolk, VA/Va Beach that has NOT responded at all to address these issues is AC Specialists. I even have a service agreement with them and the owner simply does not address the failing issues including the ductwork that he designed and installed. I wish these contractors were better vetted by Climatemaster before approving them as installers since it is the Climatemaster name that gets sullied when the equipment fails as much as mine has.

Again my has had multiple board failures, sensor failures, main fan and motor controller failed, heat exchanger failure and now TXV. Three other contractors that install Climatemaster have been out and they all say the same thing in that the compressor is next since the unit is not running correctly. I tend to agree based on what I hear from the unit when it runs.

I have notified the contractor (AC Specialists) that I intend to file litigation April 3 if no action is taken or calls returned since we believe that there is a breach of contract from them in addition to the "lemon" issues with Climatemaster. Multiple emails and phone calls on a regular basis seem to get no response from AC Specialists! Very frustrating after investing the kind of money (we) in a system that has not performed as advertised.

I wish Joe.ami lived in my area... that is the kind of response a customer should receive!

Posted By joe.ami on 12 Mar 2014 10:55 AM
Here's the thing Will,
If my customers have 2 compressors fail in a short period of time, they aren't going to pay anything until I get to the bottom of it. You are looking for answers because the guy who made more on your project than Climatemaster isn't looking for answers. Why should he?
Now another company is involved in the repairs? Well heck the original installer made all the money so the repair company has to charge you to fix it.
I've installed scores of geos of more than 1 brand. Every brand I've sold and those I haven't need repairs and some times stuff happens. The difference for my customers is that I service what I install and I do not limit my warranty terms to the manufacturers' terms.
You may indeed have a lemon, but it is your dealer not the manufacturer. The manufacturer's obligations have since ceased but they are willing to exceed them. It is a shame your original installer isn't doing the same. Frankly someone considering Climatemaster should be encouraged that they are exceeding their legal obligation in attempt to satisfy a customer. Another reminder to all it matters more who you buy from not what you buy.

Joe, It is commendable that you give your customers that level of service. You did not manufacture the equipment though. If you installed and maintained the manufacturers equipment per their specifications why are you accepting the responsibility for their equipment failing? The installer put my system in per Climate Master's spec, the unit is not over or under sized. The well piping is per spec as well as the flow. The service company has been forthcoming with helpful advice and has serviced the equipment per the manufacturer's requirements. After all of that I have had two compressors failures, one condenser failure and one evaporator failure. Will Museler

I wish Joe.ami lived in my area... that is the kind of response a customer should receive!

Exactly. My generalization for the day is that 10% of the folks out there do really good work and you are going to have problems of some kind with the other 90%. However, as soon as you say that, you're going to have one of the 10% jumping down your throat. What needs to happen is that the poor performers need to be hung out to dry MORE so that people can see the stains on their laundry. The absolute best thing would be if the manufacturers were willing to vette their representatives more carefully. Unfortunately, they are all too anxious to get a complete network of coverage for their product to worry too much about who is doing the service. "We'll cross that creek when we come to it." Unfortunately, the customer has to be stranded first, in order for that to happen.

"After all of that I have had two compressors failures, one condenser failure and one evaporator failure."

Will,

Compressors don't just fail, there is always a reason for it. What shape is your filter in? What is the Heat of Extraction/Rejection (HE/HR)? What is the temperature rise through the unit? What is the Total External Static (ESP) of the unit? What is the pressure drop across the filter? These are all measurements your service tech should provide you in a written report.

"One condenser failure and one evaporator failure" makes no sense... In the summer your air coil is the evaporator and the ground is the condenser. In the winter your air coil is the condenser and the ground is the evaporator. What was replaced?? If your contractor told you they replaced both, I would get some clarification and be a bit suspicious of their qualifications.

Bergy

I don't mean to harp the same thing, but when people are frustrated, they wish to place blame and if the bonehead in front of them seems sincere they don't want to blame that person.
CM and the other major manufacturers offer 1-3 days of training to "qualified" contractors.
Qualifications include (where applicable) State licensing. In a case such as this: "......failing issues including the ductwork that he designed and installed." why do we not blame VA? They have DPOR (Department of Professional and Occupational Regulation) who is supposed to vette contractors, yet djgvb expects a manufacturer to do the vetting.
At the next level, the Climatemaster distributor is also expected to select eligible contractors and organize training protecting theirs and the manufacturers' interests (whether it be a heat pump or furnace).
Next the contractors themselves are (legally) responsible to provide codeworthy (which includes manufacturers' installation instructions) installations and warrantys (varies by state) sometimes exceeding manufacturers.
Finally a contractor IMHO is morally responsible for customer satisfaction and product performance. Sometimes things go wrong and those of us in the front lines need to handle it. The contractor is also responsible to charge enough to ensure client satisfaction (IOW's not likely the lowest bidder).

The other person in charge of vetting the contractor is the consumer. I tell the story of the potential client who used the cheaper guy but told his neighbor to use me for his geo install. Unfortunately many consumers learn too late how much the right installer matters. While I don't want to pick on anyone, it is a shame that many consumers only seem to find these forums after they are angry. If you know how to google and find expertise it is advisable to do it before a major purchase, not after.

To Will, first manufacturers warranties are an allowance that is Energy Star driven and does not come close to actual retail repair cost. We eat the difference. Second your "lemon" has a history of trouble that suggests (to me) installer/service tech incompetence (due in part to what Bergy points out). Third a 5 figure (or 6) heating and cooling system is a marriage in trust between a contractor and consumer. Many of our relationships go past contractor-client and become more social, so yes sometimes I do work I don't get paid for. Sometimes stuff happens that is nobody's fault. I have never seen a "geo lemon" but I know if I treated my clients differently some of them might think they had one. (I did have to change 2 compressors in one heat pump....my client sees it as bad luck and they are right, but it cost them nothing so they are not upset).

ICF and I agree that some contractors give an industry a black eye. We can debate the percentages. People are fickle in who to blame when stuff goes wrong however.
If you bought a $100 drill from the Orange or Blue story and it underperformed, you wouldn't bother with the manufacturer, you'd take it to the return desk. You'd complain to the company that sold it to you and if they didn't satisfy your concerns you would complain about them. Eventually you might complain about the manufacturer as well, but you would expect satisfaction from the front line.

I will say it again, the installer makes more money on a geo system than the manufacturer or distributor. It is up to the installer to get enough for the job to make his client happy if something goes wrong. There are simlar threads about Waterfurnace and Bosch. There are ecstatic clients with every brand. That being the case, the unhappy ones are not likely created by the manufacturers (in most cases).

Interestingly enough, I just bought a range that rivals central heating plants in cost. In the course of trying to remedy an issue caused by the installer, I made my way back to the manufacturer, not expecting too much. This is what they told me; "We can't control the distributor or the retailer. However, once you buy the product, you become OUR customer and we want you to be happy with it."
Needless to say, they made the issue right.

f you bought a $100 drill from the Orange or Blue story and it underperformed, you wouldn't bother with the manufacturer, you'd take it to the return desk

No, I wouldn't. I'd blame myself for buying a bad product and contact the mfr letting them know I was unlikely to buy similar products from them in the future.

I agree that others besides manufacturers need to vet contractors but the manufacturers and distributors also have a substantial stake in the formula since they serve to lose if the contractor is garbage.

In my case, I did vet the contractor and got several comparable quotes. I have never chosen based on lowest cost alone and have gone the extra mile to ensure that everything I've done to this home has been done with an open checkbook. Yet I cannot get the contractor to even action this issue which is clearly his (duct and zone design) that may have some contribution to the failing unit. I simply am not qualified to make that determination but I can say that everyone involved, from Climatemaster to VA Air to AC Specialists, is culpable in this failure to satisfy their customer.

I welcome your advice on how to deal with the contractor who made the most money out of the deal since I have had little success other than calling his workers and paying for extra repairs that simply should NOT be occurring on a relatively new system that has NEVER worked through a cycle change without a part failure. It has also never achieved a cost savings which I have dutifully tracked since before and after the high dollar install of the geothermal system.

I am have been trying to get the owner (who would have to make the ultimate decision anyway) who designed and led the install on my system to respond but I am getting nowhere. I have indicated to him in email (the only way I am reasonable certain he sees/hears my concerns) that the breach of contract for the original install needs to be addressed before early April when I intend to file suit for breach. I know that it would be better to solve this out of court but if I cannot get a response I am certain that the court system will get his attention or I will at least win a default judgement and then be able to take the business to task. - FRUSTRATED and all I get from Climatemaster is "call someone else" yet I will be out of pocket for even more cost than the nearly $30k I laid out in the first place.

I'm glad youu remedied your problem with the range. Why was your installer not capable of proper installation? You vette labor more than anyone I know.

Lest we forget there are examples of geo manufacturers making things right even when cause out of their control.
Awhile ago Ken Kinyo recieved a full refund from the new (at that time) owners of a product even though they never recieved a dime for the sale of his heat pump. The owner of a poorly designed system in MN recently had a district rep to her house who recommended some changes. It was stated that her open minded demeanor on the forums inspired them to help vs stay hands off.
WF used to directly respond to consumers in social media unfortunately legal turned the replies into a boiler plate "please provide us with model and serial and installer's name and we will look into it".
I've seen hundreds of slides of installer screw-ups that should void warranties yet the manufacturers often honor them anyway.
There are many examples of manufacturer support, but whether a range or a geo, the installing contractor must always be held accountable first.
New cars have some of the most comprehensive warranties, yet if the oil change guy doesn't put the plug back in and you run the engine dry, it's really not their fault. Most folks would expect the oil change shop to make the repair not the manufacturer of the car.

Posted By Bergy on 12 Mar 2014 06:49 PM
"After all of that I have had two compressors failures, one condenser failure and one evaporator failure."

Will,

Compressors don't just fail, there is always a reason for it. What shape is your filter in? What is the Heat of Extraction/Rejection (HE/HR)? What is the temperature rise through the unit? What is the Total External Static (ESP) of the unit? What is the pressure drop across the filter? These are all measurements your service tech should provide you in a written report.

"One condenser failure and one evaporator failure" makes no sense... In the summer your air coil is the evaporator and the ground is the condenser. In the winter your air coil is the condenser and the ground is the evaporator. What was replaced?? If your contractor told you they replaced both, I would get some clarification and be a bit suspicious of their qualifications.

Bergy

Bergy, Sorry you did not follow my description. There are two heat exchangers in this system. One has refrigerant in the coil and air passes over it, this one failed with pin hole leaks. The other heat exchanger has refrigerant in tubes and water passes by the tubes, this one failed as well. Is that more clear for you? They failed at different times. As far as getting temperature and pressure deltas across the unit, I don't need to know those numbers. If the failed components returned to Water Energy did not present with indications that related to service, which according to them and Climate Master they did not, where else is there to place blame. Again, the service company did not manufacture this equipment they service to industry standards and manufacturer recommendations.

Will,

That information IS needed by you. That info can help us spot something wrong. That info should be kept in a binder, at the unit, so the service tech can track it. Tracking the info can show the tech when something is beginning to go wrong, allowing it to be addressed BEFORE it becomes a major repair.

Bergy

Posted By Bergy on 13 Mar 2014 03:02 PM
Will,

That information IS needed by you. That info can help us spot something wrong. That info should be kept in a binder, at the unit, so the service tech can track it. Tracking the info can show the tech when something is beginning to go wrong, allowing it to be addressed BEFORE it becomes a major repair.

Bergy

Bergy and Joe,

I am an engineer and while I could form my own diagnosis if provided with the info, I do not work on these for living and do not manufacture them.  That info is more useful to professionals in this field.  As far as my installer goes, he passed away shortly before the first compressor failure.  Nothing has been brought up that suggests that the install or design of his system is incorrect.  The service company I use is licensed to service and install climate master systems.

What I am hearing from both of you is more a sense of how you would have handled this if I were one of your customers and not why these components have all failed in such a short period of time.  What would you do if these failures occured to one of your customers over the course of 4 years?  You would be out a considerable amount of labor. 

I am familiar with Copeland scroll compressors in my profession and have a high regard for their performance and longevity.  Have either of you known of a Copeland service bulliten regarding failures? 

Regards,

Will Museler

Sorry Will I can't tell you I have heard of any Copeland bulletin about failures.
Understand it's not that i'm trying to pick on you or your installer, but that many failures on one system is very uncommon (without help from an incompetent installer or repairman) and BTW if all else is equal and it's just a lemon, then the deal to provide you a new unit at cost is a good one that you ought to jump on.
What are the dimensions of your return air drop?

Joe,

The unit top sits 56 3/8" off the floor and the bottom of the return duct is 62" off the floor. I understand that the price for the unit is a very good deal (and switching over from R22 might make it elegible for tax credits) but I would have to pay the labor to install it which would probably be at least two days I'm thinking plus commissioning so another 2-4K.

Will Museler

Will, why not ask around for an install price or ask the local distributor to give you the name of someone to quote installation price. May be less than you think.
What are the dimensions of the duct to the return air boot? (i.e. 10X24....)

Once suit is mentioned, every manufacturer will be hands off your project.

I never mentioned anything about lawyers or a suit, has not been considered.

Apologies Will. I replied to the wrong thread....manic Monday