Why wouldn't his warranty be the same as what the mfr states?

Ask him.

I did e-mail him back after I rec'd the quote an plan to call him tomorrow. Although the geothermal unit and Intellizone zoning control panel are W/F, could the fact that he uses Johnson Controls components for the zoning dampers and Honeywell t.stats void out W/F's 10 yr labor warr?

What would fall under accessories?

Typically their Aplinepure air purifying system, Geotank hot water storage, Intellizone zoning controls and thermostats.

I am wondering if their Intellizone is merely the brains of their zoning system and W/F does not make the dampers, so HVAC contractors use dampers of their choosing?

WF does make dampers and stats, most of us choose not to use their product because we are more familiar with something else or for warranty issues it can take a week to order from WF.

Your dealer has the option to cut the cost of the system and backout the warranty so that is why they may not be giving you the 10 year parts and labor warranty option. Most manufacturers pay terribly so a lot of companies choose not to use their warranty. For example my company charges $120 an hour for labor and a $109.95 diagnostic fee. So if I replace a part under warranty I charge $229.95 in most cases, if it is a WaterFurnace warranty I get paid $60. As a business owner some of us have chose to not honor the WF warranty and to lower our price instead because we loose money taking care of somebody else's warranty issue.

Posted By RoseRx on 09 Nov 2011 11:50 PM
... I am wondering if their Intellizone is merely the brains of their zoning system and W/F does not make the dampers, so HVAC contractors use dampers of their choosing?

The IntelliZone panel indeed is the 'brains' of WF's zoning system.  It provides a Pulse Width Modulated signal to the blower fan ECM motor that varies the fan speed as a function of a number of parameters, including how many zones are simultaneously calling for air and what stage the compressor is in.

WF does not manufacture the damper motors it supplies.  Instead they supply Belimo manufactured (and labeled) motors which are very highly regarded.  Belimo motors are rugged, well manufactured, and are considerably used in commercial and industrial applications too.

I've heard it two different ways with respect to contractors using non-WF supplied accessories regarding warranty terms.  Some (here in Dallas area) will use exclusively supplied WF accessories (zoning panels, damper motors, tstats), telling customers this is required in order to preserve warranty terms on the GSHP unit.  Other contractors use non-WF supplied tstats, with no concern regarding affect on warranty on the GSHP unit.  (I haven't seen examples of contractors using non-WF supplied damper motors.)

Best regards,

Bill

I second the kudos to Belimo damper positioners. I have them in my own house and use none other on my projects.

I have found a web source for Belimo-powered dampers - retrozone.com. Good pricing service and shipment.

Posted By engineer on 10 Nov 2011 10:11 PM
... I have found a web source for Belimo-powered dampers - retrozone.com. Good pricing service and shipment.

I have used http://www.retrozone.com for years for zoning supplies, including damper ducts, damper motors, and zoning panels.  They are located in a neighboring city (Parker, TX, a suburb of Dallas) to mine.  Their manufacturing facilities are significant, and ownership understands that fair pricing to individuals, trade pricing to contractors, and customer service all combined are winning strategies.

Best regards,

Bill

That's an interesting coincidence!

Their trade pricing discount isn't huge...DIYers get very good pricing. Still, I appreciate the small price break associated with the fact that they can send me 3-6 dampers for a project with zero call backs from me for tech support. The Belimo motors have been rock solid so far.

I particularly appreciate the ease of "cracking" zones with Belimo actuators. I routinely provide 4 zones off a single two stage heatpump (air or water) and, inevitably, one or more zones are too small to accept all the air from the heat pump on low stage. It is very easy with the Belimos to configure a zone to be never completely closed; just enough open to accept just enough air so as not to overblow the one small calling zone.

Thanks for all the info and replies.

It sounds like Belimo is highly regarded by both forum members and W/F and according to your accounts are not anymore expensive than its competitors.  I might be better served by requesting them for my installation, plus they might qualify me for a better W/F mfr's warranty.

Does Belimo make W/F's t.stats or does someone else?

Someone else, possibly White Rogers...someone else here may be able to confirm / correct me on that.

I use Honeywell stats on my projects, mostly from force of habit.

How willing are HVAC contractors to use components that homeowers request vs what they typically employ and are their decisions to use certain brands of equipment based on their comfort level and experience with a particular product?  I would think I would have some leverage, since Belimo is the brand that W/F recommends for their Intellizone and Envison applications, not to mention that I am P/U the tab, but by the same token, I don't want force something on them to where if it did not function properly I would be blamed due to my insistence of substituting  parts that they do not normally use.

I don't want force something on them to where if it did not function properly I would be blamed due to my insistence of substituting parts that they do not normally use.

I think you have to ask them if they feel comfortable (will honor warranty, stand by system, feel confident, etc.) installing whatever it is you want in this case. They have the option to say yes or no and you have the option to find another installer if you want it badly enough.

You can't second guess a business contract.  The warranties are whatever is expressly written.  If you don't understand it, get clarifications in writing until you do.

I would be merely asking them to install the WaterFurnace branded Belimo zoning equipment vs Johnson Control, which should only serve to bolster the warranty if one is utilizing the WaterFurnace specified brand.

You are right, I need to talk to the HVAC contractor about it.  Maybe the Johnson Control zoning equipment is available locally, so it's easier to replace in a pinch.

Posted By RoseRx on 13 Nov 2011 12:39 PM
Maybe the Johnson Control zoning equipment is available locally, so it's easier to replace in a pinch.

This is a major contributer to many of our buying decisions- "who supports me best if equipment fails?"....

Posted By engineer on 12 Nov 2011 12:23 AM
... I particularly appreciate the ease of "cracking" zones with Belimo actuators. I routinely provide 4 zones off a single two stage heatpump (air or water) and, inevitably, one or more zones are too small to accept all the air from the heat pump on low stage. It is very easy with the Belimos to configure a zone to be never completely closed; just enough open to accept just enough air so as not to overblow the one small calling zone.

If the IntelliZone panel is switched to maintain constant power to the damper motors (2-wire vs 3-wire setting), then after a couple of years, the screw on the Belimo motor comes loose that holds the adjustement that holds open the damper.  Lesson learned is to make sure the damper setting is set to 3-wire (removing constant tension on the motor adjustment), or, use some Loctite on the motor position adjusting screws.  Absent doing this, it's been my observation that eventually the motor adjustment to keep the damper partially open when the zone is off will go back to no adjustment, and you end up with a completely closed zone.

Best regards,

Bill

Posted By RoseRx on 12 Nov 2011 01:17 AM
... Does Belimo make W/F's t.stats or does someone else?

I don't know if it's exclusive, but at least for WF's upper end tstats, it's been White Rogers for a while.  I.e. for WF's multistage tstats with automatic heat/cool changeover, it's been WR's 90 Series Blue Universal Tstats.  It was WR model 1F95-1271, later replaced by 1F95-1277.

Best regards,

Bill

Posted By RoseRx on 13 Nov 2011 11:43 AM
How willing are HVAC contractors to use components that homeowers request vs what they typically employ and are their decisions to use certain brands of equipment based on their comfort level and experience with a particular product?  I would think I would have some leverage, since Belimo is the brand that W/F recommends for their Intellizone and Envison applications, not to mention that I am P/U the tab, but by the same token, I don't want force something on them to where if it did not function properly I would be blamed due to my insistence of substituting  parts that they do not normally use.

In the Dallas area, generally there are 3 groupings of contractors:

1. The ones that insist on using nothing but WF supplied accessories (i.e. tstats, damper motors).  Reasons stated range from this being the only way to maintain WF warranty coverage to this simply being the way he/she does business.  Characteristic to this set is that if the customer wants deviation then the contractor is comfortable with the customer using someone else.

2. The ones that insist on using accessories that they're comfortable with that may or may not be WF supplied (probably most common for this set is using Honeywell tstats or some other non-WF manufactured tstat).  Characteristic to this set also is that if the customer wants deviation then the contractor is again comfortable with the customer using someone else.

3. The ones that say 'no problem' to *reasonable* customer requests for change.  There may or may not be a warranty discussion and/or alteration.

All 3 business models seem to work well - there's pros and cons to each.  Certainly for a customer that wants a certain tstat (i.e. an RS485 network communicating tstat designed to be interfaced to automation systems) they'll need to use a contractor in the 3rd grouping.  Same for those customers that want some kind of zoning implementation that's not based on WF's IntelliZone panel.

If you don't live in a major urban center, where choice of installing contractor is limited, then it may be more difficult to have a choice.

Best regards,

Bill

Posted By RoseRx on 13 Nov 2011 12:39 PM
I would be merely asking them to install the WaterFurnace branded Belimo zoning equipment vs Johnson Control, which should only serve to bolster the warranty if one is utilizing the WaterFurnace specified brand.

You are right, I need to talk to the HVAC contractor about it.  Maybe the Johnson Control zoning equipment is available locally, so it's easier to replace in a pinch.

If someone is proposing to install JC zoning accessories vs WF, I'd at least ask plenty of questions.  The non-WF zoning panel's going to need some capability to 'talk' to the ECM blower motor directly (certainly doable as the ECM is manufactured by GE to common ECM standards).  The WF offered IntelliZone panel, while not a particularly sophisticated zoning panel (no inputs to monitor air temperatures or pressures, for example), does do the communication via a pulse width modulated signal.

Best regards,

Bill

The HVAC contractor did propose their Intellizone control panel.  He recently agreed to Belimo zoning components, after I told him that the reports from this HVAC web site forum have been glowing and universal, although he said he had bad luck with Belimo a few yrs ago.

I am wondering if he needs to use W/F branded T.stats to comply w/ W/F's warr requirements?  Right now he has 10 yr parts warr and 1 yr labor on the contract, but the factory W/F warr calls for 10 yr parts and 10 yr labor allowance.  I would feel better if he spelled out the remaining 9 yr labor allowance.