Hi guys, I've been reading several posts and I finally decided to go with a geothermal unit for my new build. Thanks for all the advice and information, now it will be my turn to answer some questions and post. I was originally quoted for a NextEnergy 5 Ton Forced air Tranquility 27 with desuperheater and a 5 Ton Tranquility Water to water. When the equipment showed up they had switched to a Geo Comfort Compass 5 ton forced air unit with desuperheater and a 4 Ton Geo Comfort Compass water to water unit with desuperheater. There wasn't any reduction in costs and the salesman tells me I'm getting a better product for my money. I've got 2200sq ft of infloor (basement & Garage) and 2600sq ft of forced air for the first and second floors. I'm interested to hear what some of you professionals have to say. Thanks for your input.

When I bought my Geo Comfort unit last year I was told the these produce better than others, ton for ton Of course that was the sales pitch and I'm no professional. Mine is a 6 ton conbination unit and is working well and to my satisfaction . Terry

Next Energy is a Climatemaster Clone, Geo Comfort is a Hydron clone.

They are usually downscaled units with lesser warranty than the original. With downscale I mean that the cabinet is galvanized steel and not stainless steel (at least some panels), and some of the internal components are some times different, but I do not know the details here.
There is really no real world difference between them which makes one better than the other. Both should serve you well.
Chances are that they changed suppliers, for whatever reason, and failed to communicate this to you.

GeoComfort is not a Hydron clone. Both units are manufactured by Enertech Global LLC. GeoComfort is dealer direct, Hydron is sold through distributers.

Bergy

Posted By Bergy on 02 Dec 2011 04:16 PM
GeoComfort is not a Hydron clone. Both units are manufactured by Enertech Global LLC. GeoComfort is dealer direct, Hydron is sold through distributers.

Bergy

That is what we call a clone, or re-branding with different distribution network.

A clone, or re-branding, is a unit manufactured by one party for another, such as when Water Furnace made units for Enertech labelled as GeoComfort. GeoComfort provided the warranty and tech support. If I were to call Water Furnace with questions they would refer me to Enertech for all answers.

Enertech Global LLC purchased Hydron Module several years ago and began manufacturing Hydron Module, GeoComfort and Tetco. They have yet to brand their units for a second party.

Bergy

Posted By Bergy on 04 Dec 2011 08:59 AM
A clone, or re-branding, is a unit manufactured by one party for another, such as when Water Furnace made units for Enertech labelled as GeoComfort. GeoComfort provided the warranty and tech support. If I were to call Water Furnace with questions they would refer me to Enertech for all answers.

Enertech Global LLC purchased Hydron Module several years ago and began manufacturing Hydron Module, GeoComfort and Tetco. They have yet to brand their units for a second party.

Bergy

So you take a hydron, downscale it with a different cabinet, lesser warranty etc, write GeoComfort or Tetco on it (rebranding), and sell it through a different distribution system. It does not matter if it is the same companyor a different company. Still a different brand, and still pretty much the same unit (clone). I think you are splitting hairs here.

While I am not familiar the warranty of the Tetco units, I can tell you the only difference between Hydron and GeoComfort is a lifetime compressor warranty is standard with Hydron and is offered as an upgrade with GeoComfort. Also, the cabinet is NOT downgraded from Hydron to GeoComfort.

Bergy

http://www.geocomfort.com/products/literature/23230043001.pdf
http://www.hydronmodule.com/images/unit_literature/23230045001.pdf

Geocomfort has 5 year parts/labor (10 years on compresor), Hydron has 10 years parts/labor and lifetime to original homeowner for compressor, heat exchanger and cabinet.
Hydron used to be all stainless steel, now only the panels are stainless. Geocomfort is all galvanized steel.

The real difference is who's installing the equipment. Geocomfort or hydron, what we've seen over the past 3 years is untrained dealers jumping onto the geo bandwagon. "Or energy tax credit wagon" most of your box stores/distributors are looking for numbers in a slow market/economy, and their main goal is of course to move boxes. This said, any plumber or conventional heating guy can walk in the door and purchase a box/geothermal heat pump/hydron with NO training on design or installation. As for geocomfort dealers its mandatory to complete training before coming a dealer. An educated consumer will do their research, and make their decision on the contractor they do business with and not on product alone.

I agree. That is why we do geo and nothing else. It is hard to imagine doing "on the side" e.g. doing conventional HVAC and every 2-3 months install a geosystem.

I think much ado is made about manufacturer training. While its true several brands can be purchased without a dealer certification, many more try to claim good training with 1 or 2 days of class time. Some manufacturers try to promote a higher level of training but plenty of their dealers seemed to have dozed during class.

Besides IGSHPA training I've been "trained" on 2 different DX systems and 3 water source. None of the 5 certifications offer more than a tiny percentage of what's learned in the field or evenin a few years of study here.

I would also submit that most of the "geo only" companies are more likely to be bourne of the tax credit bandwagon (this one or the Carter era).
Many companies offer multiple technologies choosing which fits the job best, not what they prefer to sell. I was a city contractor who moved to the country. While geo had no footprint in the city pre tax credit, it was still viable in propane/fuel oil land. Therefore we began to service them in the 90s after our move.
While our geo sales have eclipsed the others, I have a significant city clientelle that I won't discard simply to be all geo.

Because of the way we are set-up I tend to be more "general-contractor" on geo jobs. With a competant loop installer, electrician and plumber, out-side of design we do less on a geo than a high eff furnace install.

Not knocking "all-geo" companies, but with few very good exceptions, they'd be your worst hire in my AO.

j

Posted By joe.ami on 25 Jan 2012 11:12 AM
I think much ado is made about manufacturer training. While its true several brands can be purchased without a dealer certification, many more try to claim good training with 1 or 2 days of class time. Some manufacturers try to promote a higher level of training but plenty of their dealers seemed to have dozed during class.

Besides IGSHPA training I've been "trained" on 2 different DX systems and 3 water source. None of the 5 certifications offer more than a tiny percentage of what's learned in the field or evenin a few years of study here.

I would also submit that most of the "geo only" companies are more likely to be bourne of the tax credit bandwagon (this one or the Carter era).
Many companies offer multiple technologies choosing which fits the job best, not what they prefer to sell. I was a city contractor who moved to the country. While geo had no footprint in the city pre tax credit, it was still viable in propane/fuel oil land. Therefore we began to service them in the 90s after our move.
While our geo sales have eclipsed the others, I have a significant city clientelle that I won't discard simply to be all geo.

Because of the way we are set-up I tend to be more "general-contractor" on geo jobs. With a competant loop installer, electrician and plumber, out-side of design we do less on a geo than a high eff furnace install.

Not knocking "all-geo" companies, but with few very good exceptions, they'd be your worst hire in my AO.

j

We went from being a HVAC/plumbing company for 70 years to a 95% geothermal company. What I meant to say is that you really benefit when you breath geo in and out. It is hard to imagine to have the experience and routine when you do a system once a quarter. We do everything around it: plumbing (keeping our plumbing licenses), ductwork, electrical, radiant, horizontal loopfields, gas backup generators etc. Why would we be a "worst hire"? The only "conventional" customers we still serve are our old customers from our paste times. All new conventional inquiries we refer to our HVAC friends.

Docjenser,................. I wish, more installers aquire your skills, before installing a geo-thermal-system.

What documentation do you provide for your potential customers, before closing the deal?

Posted By 037614 on 25 Jan 2012 06:55 PM

Docjenser,................. I wish, more installers aquire your skills, before installing a geo-thermal-system.

What documentation do you provide for your potential customers, before closing the deal?

It is interesting, we used to go out and attach reference lists, and I spend a lot of time showing and explaining systems we built , and people were skeptical about the performance. That has all changed. I have not updated our reference list for a couple years.
3 main things:
1) Many of our systems are streaming life data online with the WELserver, so the performance is ultimately transparent. The living room is at 70F, and the cost for that was $128 in January. with propane it was $600. That pretty much says it all.
2) Multiple builders made our geo systems standard on their new houses, and now build whole developments all geo. That has installed confidence in customers. I don't get question anymore like "Will it heat my house?"
3) Most of our customers are send to us by previous customers who are very pleased about us, who send their friends and neighbors to us. Their questions are already answered. Most do not get competitive bids. They know the costs already (they indeed talk to each other), and they appreciate the extra mile we go for everyone. So they know what to expect, and then you simply fulfill their expectations. And then they go around and tell everyone how happy they are about their system. It is kind of a vicious cycle, and has made it relatively simple for us. We have grown 200%-300% each year for the last 4 years. Only had 1-2 customers which were not happy. One complains about $350 January heat bill, coming off $7000 annual oil bill. Another customer complains bitterly about noise, which comes from ductwork. Velocity is at 400 ft/min, For me it sounds very quite. Her main complain is that it runs too long, and does not give her a rest between cycles. So I really struggle to help them with their expectations.
But everyone else is a very happy camper. Making the customer happy is IMHO the secret to our success.

Posted By docjenser on 26 Jan 2012 04:58 AM

... 1) Many of our systems are streaming life data online with the WELserver, so the performance is ultimately transparent. The living room is at 70F, and the cost for that was $128 in January. with propane it was $600. That pretty much says it all.

Starting to see similar activity with the WELserver here in Dallas.

Best regards,

Bill

Doc if you look again I said geo only companies would not be the best hire in my AO. My point was most of the geo only companies in mid MI are just a couple years old (though I mentioned there are exceptions).

Posted By joe.ami on 27 Jan 2012 08:29 AM
Doc if you look again I said geo only companies would not be the best hire in my AO. My point was most of the geo only companies in mid MI are just a couple years old (though I mentioned there are exceptions).

Joe, I got it. No Sweat. The point was that there are many ways to guarantee a good end product to the customer. You can do it all by yourself, or, if there is something you cannot do, or do not want to do, that there is nothing wrong about hiring someone from whom you know does it well.

doc...what part of the country are you in?

Posted By robinnc on 27 Jan 2012 07:34 PM
doc...what part of the country are you in?

Buffalo, NY