Posted By FBBP on 06 Feb 2012 12:00 PM
Joe - with regard to the Mojave, I borrow this from a local installers website.


"However, there is a reason why 99% of our installations are vertical borehole. The ground temperatures in this part of the world are such, that to tap into real consistent temperatures below the frost line (required for efficient operation of the geothermal system), your horizontal trench would have to be around 10-12ft deep. Even at 12ft, you’re still looking to add about 25% extra length to your loop field. As an example, a 200ft deep vertical borehole is equivalent to a 250ft long trench at 12ft depth. Unless you have access to very cheap excavation, the cost difference between a vertical and horizontal system becomes negligible when you have to move that much dirt.
In milder climates (parts of BC, and in the States), horizontal systems are a lot more common as ground temperatures & climate allow for more shallow trenches. From our experience in the industry, a lot of the ‘nightmare’ stories around geothermal involve horizontal systems that were not buried deep enough or simply undersized."


The last sentence I think does explain some of the issues in the Calgary area. As you said "local knowledge"

Please note that the horizontal loopfield design was a slinky, requiring 8 ft of pipe per foot of trench, for 7280 ft total at 8' depth for 5 tons in Calgary. In comparison, we would need 4000Ft total to support a 5 ton heatpump in western new york. So it needs to be about 80% larger in Calgary.
The 7,280' slinky at 8ft compares with 2000' of vertical pipe in Calgary. Both would be sufficient to keep the min EWT above 30F. In the real world, the question is what costs you more.

The question here was wether a geosystem would work in Calgary, and wether a loop designed correctly would get the EWT within the operation range of the heatpump.

The answer to both questions is yes.

ThermalCreek you are citing as a local installer seems to have completed many successful installs.

There is no doubt that geo can work most places out of the arctic, but is it he most cost effective? I don't know.
Manufacturers' and even industry leaders often don't even know what is required to make a system work in some areas.
The old Bard book sites an old IGSHPA conclusion that a 600' slinky/ton is almost universally adequate as long as soil is not dry.......well, not so in Calgary.

So if you are in Calgary, and nat gas is available, you might find geo is not for you, but if you are considering elec. heat, it probably is.
j

Posted By docjenser on 07 Feb 2012 02:43 AM


ThermalCreek you are citing as a local installer seems to have completed many successful installs.

Thermal Creek is less than 6 years old. I think he is right from the point that many of the early failures ie geo don't work in Calgary is because horizontals were only installed at eight feet deep. Remember we bury our water line in excess of eight feet and they still sometimes freeze. I hope that in a few years people like Thermal Creek will have some good data and maybe they will prove me wrong. That would not be a "bad" thing! I'm somewhat upset about the whole industry here because I know a number of people who lost to much money on systems that didn't work. (and a number of commercial installs as well) If the data proves that it is not a case of source drop or diminishing returns then we get to look at if from a different angle.
Couple of other things Doc. I'm wondering why waterfurnace uses less heating runtime for Calgary than Buffalo? Also why the Calgary cooling load is twice the Buffalo cooling load (less chh's in Calgary) but has longer cooling runtime? This is probably because I don't understand the report properly but It struck me as interesting.

Posted By FBBP on 08 Feb 2012 11:25 AM

Posted By docjenser on 07 Feb 2012 02:43 AM


ThermalCreek you are citing as a local installer seems to have completed many successful installs.

Thermal Creek is less than 6 years old. I think he is right from the point that many of the early failures ie geo don't work in Calgary is because horizontals were only installed at eight feet deep. Remember we bury our water line in excess of eight feet and they still sometimes freeze. I hope that in a few years people like Thermal Creek will have some good data and maybe they will prove me wrong. That would not be a "bad" thing! I'm somewhat upset about the whole industry here because I know a number of people who lost to much money on systems that didn't work. (and a number of commercial installs as well) If the data proves that it is not a case of source drop or diminishing returns then we get to look at if from a different angle.
Couple of other things Doc. I'm wondering why waterfurnace uses less heating runtime for Calgary than Buffalo? Also why the Calgary cooling load is twice the Buffalo cooling load (less chh's in Calgary) but has longer cooling runtime? This is probably because I don't understand the report properly but It struck me as interesting.

If you are still in business after 6 years, that is more than most geo-installers, and indicates that they are doing something right. I would argue that an 8ft loopfield would work if you make it large enough, and I don't argue the fact that it would be smaller at 12 ft depth.
Trust me, I am upset, too, about all the incompetent installers (and sometimes designers) out there which give geo a bad reputation. No question that Calgary, Alberta is more challenging (or should we say less forgiving), but the problem of non-qualified installers is present all over the US and Canada.
All the calculations assumed that the same insulation values between WNY and Calgary exist. That is probably wrong, since I was giving you a worst case scenario with a 59 KBTU/h heatloss at -29F. However, it should not be that much if the house in Calgary has a better insulation standard. Thermal Creek has a 3 ton geo system on a 2200 sqf house on a WELsever, but it does not seem to fully hooked up.

So the same house in WNY has a 41 KBTU/H load at 6F design temp (requiring a 3 tonsystem) but the modeling suggest that a 5 ton system would run most economical to cover temp down to -29 outside design in Calgary. Buffalo has about 7000 degree days (DDs) versus Calgary's 10,000 DDs. In other words, the 5 ton system in Calgary has 66% more capacity but will have lesser runtime especially in the off-peak heating season. Buffalo has more moderate climate because of the lake, so it needs less peak capacity. In the spring Buffalo does not heat up that quickly like in continental climate areas like Calgary, since the lake is still at 32F, requiring still longer run times but with not much peak capacity. At the end, different climates are reflected in the BIN hours and their distribution. It is not unique to Waterfurnace programs, but all the different modeling software uses the same BIN Weather tables. For example Albany New York has a 98% design temp of -6F, whereas Buffalo has +4F, however, Buffalo has 13% more heating degree days.
The cooling load I just guessed and put a minimum into it, again, assuming worst case scenario for the loop design without any heat rejection during the summer.

Thanks Doc. If the WEL server you are referring to is the one that was discuss on this forum a year or so ago, than yes it has gone awol. I had so hoped it might give us some really good data. It was a bore hole unit and in an area that had verily high grounded water for about twenty feet but I'm not sure how much that would affect a grouted bore. It was in an area that is old riverbed next to the Bow River so it should bring more heat quicker to that portion of the bore but percentage wise maybe not so much. Hopefully it might come back to life! p.s. I was not knocking six years of service just that they would not have that long a term of reference. Still looking for 10 year data on an install!

Posted By FBBP on 08 Feb 2012 05:24 PM
Thanks Doc. If the WEL server you are referring to is the one that was discuss on this forum a year or so ago, than yes it has gone awol. I had so hoped it might give us some really good data. It was a bore hole unit and in an area that had verily high grounded water for about twenty feet but I'm not sure how much that would affect a grouted bore. It was in an area that is old riverbed next to the Bow River so it should bring more heat quicker to that portion of the bore but percentage wise maybe not so much. Hopefully it might come back to life! p.s. I was not knocking six years of service just that they would not have that long a term of reference. Still looking for 10 year data on an install!

It is tough to find 10 years of data on an install, since the technology has changed so much. Plus 1-2 years of good reliable data is fine, there is not much reason that it will change very much between year 2 and year 10. Thermal Creek does not provide much info on the system they have online. It appears that the temperature probes they have are not very well calibrated, it shows a delta T for the source side of 2.6 F, and only a heat extraction of less than 10000 BTU/H. Delta T on the load side over the coil seems OK. They are showing loop temps n the mid 30s,
Water is always good, even surrounding a grouted borehole.

Doc, FBBP, great discussion. I just stumbled upon this thread and thought I could share some of my insights. I'm one of the founders of Thermal Creek here in Calgary, and the mechanical engineer responsible for designing our systems.

Technically, and most people here seem to agree, you can make a geo system work in pretty much any climate and any scenario. It simply comes down to doing proper designs, using the appropriate variables, being overly diligent on ANY apsect of the installation and using proper controls (one item I hadn't seen much about in the discussion, but controls in my opinion are a vital aspect in making the system run as efficiently as possible). Whether you go horizontal, vertical, heating only, etc... it's all irrelevant as long as you design for it.
One of our clients actually introduced me to the WEL system (http://www.welserver.com/WEL0381/) a couple of years ago. His house has infloor heating throughout and no cooling. This is his second winter and his EWT is the same this year as it was last, usually a couple of degrees above 32F. As I'm sure most designers do (at least I hope), we use a 15 year simulation for EWT and design our loop fields for 32F EWT. In other words, there will be a slight drop in surrounding ground temperatures over time, but using the laws of thermodynamics, the ground will find itself in a new steady-state allowing for 32F EWT.

I'm a little puzzled myself about what our ground loop temp sensors are currently reporting on the 2,200sqft house we have on our site. There seem to be some fluctuations. A few weeks ago when it was really cold here (-30F) the ground loop Diff was between 4-5F in stage one (system power usage 1.2KW) with EWT of around 35F. Currently it is much milder here (40F) and the system seems to only extract about 2F over the ground, while using the same amount of power (1.2KW) and even a slightly higher EWT of around 37F. I have to go check it out....

Economically speaking, Alberta is currently indeed not the easiest market to sell geothermal due to our bottom natural gas prices. It's amazing how quickly people forget that 3 years ago we were paying $14/GJ here. Now I'm not saying it will go back to those prices anytime soon, but with more and more natural gas being exported to Asia, and a virtual stop on new natural gas explorations here, the supply & demand balance is bound to shift back at least somewhat. Most of our clients operate from the notion of conserving energy, which of course is an undeniable fact when compared to any fossil fuel heating system.
Cutting out the usage of natural gas completely is a great way to generate further savings. We have numerous clients who have done exactly that, and are simply paying one less bill per month. When you add all the Rider, Admin, etc... fees al toghether, our price per GJ is still around $11. The owner of the "Live" house has no natural gas. Her heating cost with geo was around $40-$50 for the month of January. Guaranteed, if she had natural gas, her gas bill for January would have been at least $100-$125.

I understand the frustration with the geo industry and the comment from FBBP about people losing money because of bad installations. As you noted, we've been installing systems for about 6 years now, and when we entered the market here there were a couple of (what we thought) strong competitors here. These companies have gone out of business a few years ago, and we get a ton of service calls from their clients who have experienced geothermal in a negative way. It is painful to come into these projects and see the low quality designs and workmanship.

I think a big issue is that the public isn't informed enough to be able to do a proper Apples-to-Apples comparison between geo quotes, and as such the cheaper one will usually win. I'm pretty sure our pricing is competitive, but I refuse to undersize a ground loop just to win the bid. A couple of years ago we lost a commercial tender for design and installation of a large vertical field. I knew our price per foot was good, but the competing firm all of a sudden came in at 50% of our bid. When I asked the GC about how much loop they were installing, he first didn't know why this was relevant, and then told me that he didn't care since the competing firm 'guaranteed' that it was adequate. When I explained the technology further, he finally understood that it was indeed relevant and went back to the competing firm to ask them. They told him that they would not disclose this information in their bid and that he simply had to trust their guarantee....and the GC bought it...
Anyways, lessons learned on our end...

FBBP, if you're ever interested to see one our systems, or talk to any of our clients, let me know and I'll be happy to set something up. We are proud of the fact that we have a 100% success rate on our installations, and that all of our clients are warm...even in -40F and more often than not, without any back up heat.

Doc - ten year data is much better than two year data if you lean toward believing Joe's Old Wife's Tales ;-) With any luck in a couple of years KvdM will be able to prove me and them old wives wrong.


Kvdm - welcome aboard. Hope you stick around. Always nice to hear opinions that are based on cooler temps than the semi tropics most of these guys work in. I hope your right about the natural gas but I'm not holding my breathe. Encana is its own worse enemy. They didn't drill as many shale gas holes this year as last but they sure didn't stop!


Hope your keeping those wooden shoes warm! Straw is cheap out here.

For the pros on here. What would be your opinion if a lic(tested) was required to install geo? Several folks on here has mentioned about bad installations.

Posted By KvdM on 09 Feb 2012 01:35 PM
Doc, FBBP, great discussion. I just stumbled upon this thread and thought I could share some of my insights. I'm one of the founders of Thermal Creek here in Calgary, and the mechanical engineer responsible for designing our systems.

Technically, and most people here seem to agree, you can make a geo system work in pretty much any climate and any scenario. It simply comes down to doing proper designs, using the appropriate variables, being overly diligent on ANY apsect of the installation and using proper controls (one item I hadn't seen much about in the discussion, but controls in my opinion are a vital aspect in making the system run as efficiently as possible). Whether you go horizontal, vertical, heating only, etc... it's all irrelevant as long as you design for it.
One of our clients actually introduced me to the WEL system (http://www.welserver.com/WEL0381/) a couple of years ago. His house has infloor heating throughout and no cooling. This is his second winter and his EWT is the same this year as it was last, usually a couple of degrees above 32F. As I'm sure most designers do (at least I hope), we use a 15 year simulation for EWT and design our loop fields for 32F EWT. In other words, there will be a slight drop in surrounding ground temperatures over time, but using the laws of thermodynamics, the ground will find itself in a new steady-state allowing for 32F EWT.

I'm a little puzzled myself about what our ground loop temp sensors are currently reporting on the 2,200sqft house we have on our site. There seem to be some fluctuations. A few weeks ago when it was really cold here (-30F) the ground loop Diff was between 4-5F in stage one (system power usage 1.2KW) with EWT of around 35F. Currently it is much milder here (40F) and the system seems to only extract about 2F over the ground, while using the same amount of power (1.2KW) and even a slightly higher EWT of around 37F. I have to go check it out....

Economically speaking, Alberta is currently indeed not the easiest market to sell geothermal due to our bottom natural gas prices. It's amazing how quickly people forget that 3 years ago we were paying $14/GJ here. Now I'm not saying it will go back to those prices anytime soon, but with more and more natural gas being exported to Asia, and a virtual stop on new natural gas explorations here, the supply & demand balance is bound to shift back at least somewhat. Most of our clients operate from the notion of conserving energy, which of course is an undeniable fact when compared to any fossil fuel heating system.
Cutting out the usage of natural gas completely is a great way to generate further savings. We have numerous clients who have done exactly that, and are simply paying one less bill per month. When you add all the Rider, Admin, etc... fees al toghether, our price per GJ is still around $11. The owner of the "Live" house has no natural gas. Her heating cost with geo was around $40-$50 for the month of January. Guaranteed, if she had natural gas, her gas bill for January would have been at least $100-$125.

I understand the frustration with the geo industry and the comment from FBBP about people losing money because of bad installations. As you noted, we've been installing systems for about 6 years now, and when we entered the market here there were a couple of (what we thought) strong competitors here. These companies have gone out of business a few years ago, and we get a ton of service calls from their clients who have experienced geothermal in a negative way. It is painful to come into these projects and see the low quality designs and workmanship.

I think a big issue is that the public isn't informed enough to be able to do a proper Apples-to-Apples comparison between geo quotes, and as such the cheaper one will usually win. I'm pretty sure our pricing is competitive, but I refuse to undersize a ground loop just to win the bid. A couple of years ago we lost a commercial tender for design and installation of a large vertical field. I knew our price per foot was good, but the competing firm all of a sudden came in at 50% of our bid. When I asked the GC about how much loop they were installing, he first didn't know why this was relevant, and then told me that he didn't care since the competing firm 'guaranteed' that it was adequate. When I explained the technology further, he finally understood that it was indeed relevant and went back to the competing firm to ask them. They told him that they would not disclose this information in their bid and that he simply had to trust their guarantee....and the GC bought it...
Anyways, lessons learned on our end...

FBBP, if you're ever interested to see one our systems, or talk to any of our clients, let me know and I'll be happy to set something up. We are proud of the fact that we have a 100% success rate on our installations, and that all of our clients are warm...even in -40F and more often than not, without any back up heat.

Welcome here. Keep us posted, and get more monitoring online.

"For the pros on here. What would be your opinion if a lic(tested) was required to install geo? Several folks on here has mentioned about bad installations."

Rob,
In MI and many other places, they do require a license to install geo.....a mechanical contractors license. Consumers have recourse through the state they seldom use.

Licenses do not ensure character, they simply mean someone can pass a test.

Many people have mentioned good installations here, you simply focus on the bad (which is why IMHO you convey a negative vibe).

Besides people ask for help solving problems here so those threads tend to be longer as we ask other questions. They also tend to be more emotional. You'll noticed though they tend to end abruptly after problems are solved.

I see plusses and munises associated with requiring a separate qualification to install geo. I would hope it would take the form of an endorsement to an existing license so as not to trigger another expensive renewal process.

What I would NOT want to see is a single organization (such as IGSHPA) cornering the market on the certification via government fiat. That would almost certainly lead to high prices, poor service and a lethargic bureaucracy

Hey Everyone...I'm new to the game here. I live in Maine and have an old colonial (about 2000 sq/ft). I heat with wood stove and oil. Can't tell you how I hate using oil. And it's super expensive. I've been thinking about alternative ways to heat the house. Because it's a Colonial it is symmetrical in it's orientation...4 rooms on the first floor, 4 directly above those. It's hard to move the wood heat around in a house like this. We do have baseboard heat for the oil. My question is do I look into geothermal considering this kind of house and this kind of climate?

You might get better results if you start a new thread. I am afraid your question will get lost in all of the other chatter.

Foxglove, You might get better results if you start a new thread. I am afraid your question will get lost in all of the other chatter.

Posted By joe.ami on 10 Feb 2012 09:50 AM
"For the pros on here. What would be your opinion if a lic(tested) was required to install geo? Several folks on here has mentioned about bad installations."

Rob,
In MI and many other places, they do require a license to install geo.....a mechanical contractors license. Consumers have recourse through the state they seldom use.

Licenses do not ensure character, they simply mean someone can pass a test.

Many people have mentioned good installations here, you simply focus on the bad (which is why IMHO you convey a negative vibe).

Besides people ask for help solving problems here so those threads tend to be longer as we ask other questions. They also tend to be more emotional. You'll noticed though they tend to end abruptly after problems are solved.

Joe, you're taking what I said out of context. I'm talking about the HVAC contractor that had been installing ASHP for 20 yrs and decides they want to install geo also. As you and others on here say,  there is ALOT more to it than just putting pipe in the ground and calling it geo. Where do they get this training? I know it doesn't  guarantee anything that someone passed a test but IMO, A rider with their mech lic showing that they have at least trained and taken a test for geo. As you know, this part of geo is 'critical' for it to even work properly.

Rob what did I take out of context?

There is a lot to any kind of contracting. Yet there are not 1000 subcatagories. Licensing simply indicates a capability to read and understand a code book which is the bare minimum standard.